Meanwhile: The First Bitcoin-Dominated Life Insurance Company

In this riveting episode of The Edge of Show, recorded live at Bitcoin Las Vegas, host Richard Carthon sits down with Zac Townsend, Co-Founder and CEO of Meanwhile—the world’s first Bitcoin life insurance company. From his early days with Cory Booker and McKinsey to founding a Bitcoin-dedicated financial institution, Zac unpacks a powerful narrative about long-term value, decentralization, and the future of financial protection. This isn’t just about insuring your life—it’s about hodling your Bitcoin through the next generation.

Townsend dives into how Meanwhile allows customers to pay premiums and receive claims entirely in Bitcoin, turning traditional life insurance into a decentralized wealth preservation tool. He also teases a Bitcoin-denominated annuity product that aims to revolutionize how users approach long-term savings. With big institutional backing, a fresh $40M funding round, and a mission to serve both high-net-worth holders and emerging markets like Argentina and Nigeria, Meanwhile isn’t just another fintech startup—it’s a cornerstone of the coming Bitcoin economy.

Key Topics Covered

• Genesis of Meanwhile and BTC protection
  Zach reveals how his public service background—working for Newark’s mayor and undergrad during 2008 crisis—led to founding Meanwhile, focusing on Bitcoin-based life insurance rooted in financial inclusion.
• Whole-life policy denominated in Bitcoin
  A far cry from term policies, Meanwhile offers fully Bitcoin-denominated whole-life insurance, matching premiums, reserves, and payouts in BTC for true value preservation.
• Policy loans and yields in Bitcoin
  Policyholders earn ~3% yield via conservative private credit loans, with 2% credited to the policy. Borrowing against one’s own policy is tax-free and margin-free, unlocking liquidity without selling BTC.
• $61M funding and global expansion
  Backed by a $40M raise led by Framework and Folger, Meanwhile plans international KYC/KYB rollout and a pioneering BTC-denominated annuity product launching in the next 18 months.
• Long-term vision: Bitcoin as global financial infrastructure
  Townsend envisions Meanwhile becoming a generational wealth tool for millions worldwide, enabling long-term planning and hedge against devaluation in inflationary economies.

Episode Highlights

“We’re building that company for the Bitcoin economy.” — Zach Townsend

“Our entire mechanics—premiums, reserves, payouts—are all in Bitcoin.” — Zach Townsend

“You can borrow one of your own Bitcoin back out tax‑free.” — Zach Townsend

“We think we’re building a defining institution of the Bitcoin economy.” — Zach Townsend

“We take that trust and responsibility quite seriously.” — Zach Townsend

People and Resources Mentioned

• Zach Townsend – Co‑Founder & CEO, Meanwhile
• Richard Carthon – Host, Edge of Show
• Meanwhile – Bitcoin life insurance
• McKinsey
• California Chief Data Officer
• Standard Treasury (acquired by Silicon Valley Bank)
• Framework (crypto investment firm)
• Folger
• Wences Casares

About Our Guest

Zach Townsend is the co-founder and CEO of Meanwhile, the world’s first Bitcoin-dominated life insurance company. With a robust background leading McKinsey’s financial services practice, serving as California’s inaugural Chief Data Officer, and co-founding Standard Treasury (acquired by Silicon Valley Bank), Townsend brings deep expertise in financial infrastructure and public policy. His vision is to democratize long-term savings and protection by offering fully Bitcoin-denominated life insurance policies and tax-advantaged financial tools for a global audience.

Guest Contacts

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachtownsend/
• Website: https://meanwhile.bm
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/ztownsend

Transcript:

Richard Carthon: What's up everybody Richard Carthon here live at Bitcoin Las Vegas and this is another episode of the Edge of Show. Today we have an absolutely incredible guest. We have Zach Townsend who is the co-founder and CEO of Meanwhile, the world's first Bitcoin-dominated life insurance company focused on democratizing financial protection. He previously led McKinsey's financial services practice and served as California's first chief data officer. Zach also founded Standard Treasury, a banking API company acquired by Silicon Valley Bank, and holds degrees from Brown University, NYU's Wagoner School. That's awesome, man. Meanwhile, as the world's- I'll say, I didn't lead the financial services practice at McKinsey.
Zac Townsend: I was a leader immediately. Leader. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was going to say, the global leader of the financial services practice, he's a very distinguished fellow. Yeah, I wasn't there yet. But that's still very-
Richard Carthon: Awesome accomplishment. Yeah. So meanwhile, the world's first Bitcoin-dominated life insurance company offering simple and affordable coverage that lets customers protect their families using Bitcoin and aims to become a financial protection that's accessible, aligned, and future of digital money. So, Zach, welcome to the show. Very happy to have you. Thanks for having me. And thanks for being here. Yeah, happy to be here. So, you know, we're in Vegas. We're just getting started. This is day two. How has the experience been so far?
Zac Townsend: Oh, it's been great. I mean, first off, you know, with all time highs with Bitcoin, there's just so much like energies. Someone told me there's 30,000 people here today. You can really feel it. I'm sure people will see how many people walk by us. So tons of energy just around Bitcoin. And also, you know, for us, It's just a little different than years past, right? Things are a lot more institutional. I gave a talk this morning, the talk before me included a guy from Fidelity. I think there's been a real sea change since the ETFs where institutions are more interested and also I think there's more interest in companies that are institutional. Right. So life insurance is one of these like important agents like can be interesting, can be boring companies or things. And like we're building that company for the Bitcoin economy. And there's just been so much receptivity to that specific thing of Bitcoin life insurance. But I think also the broader thing of like institutional
Richard Carthon: Bitcoin adoption. I agree. And we're definitely getting to your discussion earlier on your panel. But I want to stay on that thread of just like the institutional adoption, like everyone looking at this, you can't really see around us, but there are a ton of booths and there's a lot of different from mining to Bitcoin layer twos to what you have with life insurance. And it's just really awesome to see how the maturity that is coming into the market and the reception of it. But Going back to like you being from McKinsey, now going into life insurance and Bitcoin, like you like being at the thread of innovation. Like how is all of this kind of your life experience kind of converged into this moment of. Yeah, of doing it.
Zac Townsend: What a question. I mean, look, it actually started way before that is I worked for Cory Booker when he was the mayor of Newark, New Jersey. Wow. and one of the things I was like the head of innovation for the city and one of the things that I was cast with which is was like why do people in West Newark not have bank accounts like why do they do check cashing like and like a lot of people apparently like Satoshi too like I graduated college into the financial crisis right And I was sort of looking around like I had a job offer rescinded. I was like, what? This doesn't make sense to me. Right. So when I first really engaged with Bitcoin in 2015, you know, it wasn't necessarily at that time felt like my life's work, but it felt like something new and different. This idea of a store of value that's sort of like global is decentralized, is outside the control of any government. And that threat culminated in We decide to found this company. We're like, okay Wow, we believe in the idea of a Bitcoin economy and the opportunity for that to be the way we reach people globally and I My co-founder and I are just motivated by, everyone says it and a lot of people aren't genuine, but our vision is to start with big Bitcoin holders and this systematically go down market. Our dream is if you live in Argentina, you don't buy life insurance. You don't save for your kids because you are going to live longer than the Argentinian peso. So this idea of a store of value that isn't debasable, you know, by a government. I think that's so powerful. And it goes all the way back again to like the financial crisis, like me graduating college and like working with Corey and then, you know, Standard Treasury, I was trying to build financial infrastructure, like working at McKinsey for me was, I recently wrote an article about how I was like, trying to learn about the enemy. And it was just like, a great experience of being inside big financial institutions and understanding what they're good at, what they're bad at, where the cracks in the system are. And all of that, you're right, comes together and informs Meanwhile.
Richard Carthon: I think it's a really awesome origin story of how you got here. It's similar to myself. I originally got into, once I was working in the field, I was at Merrill Lynch doing wealth management. And I was learning about all these different financial tools that are put in place to help a wealthy continue to stay wealthy and get wealthier. But your everyday person still needs to have access to it. And when I learned about crypto, it became a great equalizer to me. And so, like, that's how I kind of like got into this and I got pretty passionate about it. And it sounds like, you know, all of your experiences got you passionate to create Meanwhile. So now we're here with Meanwhile. So what is Meanwhile and what are you aiming to do with it?
Zac Townsend: Yeah, I mean, actually, at its heart, Life insurance companies are really about long-term savings. They do solve this problem of what happens to your loved ones if you die before you're supposed to. That's life insurance. What happens to your loved ones if you live longer than you're supposed to? That's what an annuity is supposed to solve. But fundamentally, it's about that long-range savings, whether for yourself, whether for your kids, whether for whoever you care about. So the ultimate aim is along those lines. Right now, our minimum policy size, and I can talk all about it, is one Bitcoin. But we want to do half a Bitcoin. We want to do a tenth of a Bitcoin. get into nominating things in Satoshi's and sort of move down market and helping people save in this store of value that we think is going to persist decade over decade, right? If you bought a life insurance, like my son's seven years old, so he was born in 2018, and if you bought a life insurance policy in dollars in 2018, you've seen like 25% of the purchasing power of that policy go and disappear, right? Yeah. And imagine if you had bought a life insurance policy or a long-term savings product in Bitcoin in 2018. 5X. Yeah, particularly one that is actually like somewhat hard to sell, right? Like we try to push people into thinking like, oh, am I serious about hodling? Like hodling and life insurance are like the same thing. It really is like intergenerational wealth. Life insurance, you're playing the long game. You're playing the long game. So what Meanwhile is, is we have a company in Bermuda I like to point out Bermuda, not the Bahamas, okay? So like not where FTX is. Bermuda, it's like where, you know, the buildings in Hamilton, Bermuda are like Chubb and Munich Re and Swiss Re and, you know, Athene, like big, big insurance companies based in Bermuda. And what they allowed us to do is start a fully like normal life insurance company. It's just that instead of being in euros or yen or Swiss francs or dollars, it's in Bitcoin. So people pay premiums in Bitcoin, they pay claim, we pay claims in Bitcoin. And all the like mechanics of the insurance company, like reserves, actuarial math, investments, audited financials, are all entirely in Bitcoin. So for us, truly one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin. And the reason we did it that way is so that like over the course of running this company, Bitcoin has been like, It was at $35, then it went to $15, and then it went to $75, and then it went back to $30, and then it went to $110. But the core mechanics of the insurance company have been the same those entire time, because our assets and our liabilities are entirely matched in Bitcoin. And then our first product is like a dead simple, like from the 1830s, a whole life policy.
Richard Carthon: So let's let's stay there for a second. Right. So first of all, coming together and deciding, like, OK, I'm going to create life insurance. And then I'm gonna denominate it in Bitcoin, which I you're the first if I'm not mistaken like I'm first only first and only That's first which you brought up a really interesting story. I personally Recently got life insurance for my family and but I did not get it from the right company I did not if I knew this was an option I probably would have been exploring this option, but you bring an interesting point of I actually got into if you want do you answer not yet, but coming you have a wife
Zac Townsend: Yeah. Do you want your wife to get a million dollars or 10 Bitcoin? Right. Right. You die. Right. Like when you put it that way, it's like so obvious. Yeah. Yeah. And before we even talk about the tax state planning to us, right. We're just like fundamentally like you, you, you're going to die in 40 years or something like a million dollars or 10 Bitcoin.
Richard Carthon: Right. So I want to go into it. So one of the first things that you're offering is whole life insurance. So there's two pieces to this. One, for some of our audience, they've heard of life insurance. Maybe they are thinking about like, oh, should I look into this thing? First, just break down what is whole life insurance? And then how is Meanwhile doing it differently?
Zac Townsend: yeah well so uh whole life insurance lasts your whole life it is well named and because we're all gonna die unfortunately um i mean maybe brian johnson will solve our problem but like you know eventually it will die because it lasts your whole life there will eventually be a payout to your wife to your hypothetical kids, two will never. And that is different from the other big class of life insurance policies are called term life. And term life lasts a certain term, like 10 years, 20 years or 30 years. And term life is actually like quite, I think, interesting and important, but it's really a protection product. It really is like, I die tragically before I'm supposed to in the next 10 years, which is very statistically unlikely, but could happen, and then my wife gets a huge payout relative to the amount I paid. We didn't start with term life really for two reasons. One is actually just a bad business for most insurance companies, but the more important reason is The typical policyholder in term life, you put value, you pay, and then you get something, but that something is that if I had died, I would have gotten paid. So most people, they pay, and then they can feel like they didn't get anything. They got protections, but they didn't get any payout. That's the most likely outcome. And we just felt like, okay, in Bitcoin and crypto, there's a really bad history of you pay someone and they don't pay you back. So it just didn't feel right to us. So we really wanted to start with something that was a savings product. Again, the culture of hodling, holding Bitcoin for your lifetime, really matches up with life insurance. So that's whole life.
Richard Carthon: I think that's a really good way of explaining it. And it was also a very similar way to explain to me. Now, for someone who's listening to this and like, you know, unfortunately, like you said, we're not going to live forever. And one of the things that comes into wealth creation is diversification. Yeah. And one of the ways that someone recently told me I got full life insurance was to get more of that diversification and other things with it. So for someone who's listening to this, who is listening to their ears are perked to like, oh, cool, like now I can use this with my Bitcoin. How is that basically transcribing over from the traditional sense over into just having this run purely through crypto?
Zac Townsend: Well, I'd say that you can think of it from two different angles when you talk about diversification. So the first is, someone who's like all in on Bitcoin already and they a lot of their net worth's in Bitcoin they're like rich because of Bitcoin and then the way we often frame the product for that person is like you should have a range of like ways of holding Bitcoin. So maybe you have some at Unchained or Casa, which is a multi-sig solution. Maybe you have some that you're self-custodying on a ledger wallet buried in your backyard. Maybe you have some in the ETF or whatever. And then we're another tool in that toolkit that compounds, goes to your kids tax-free, You can borrow against it, which we can talk about tax free. So it's like a diversification of the way that you're holding and accessing Bitcoin. So that's like one type of policyholder we have. We have another policyholder who Bitcoin is a small part of their overall wealth picture.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
Zac Townsend: And they've decided like, oh, I want to own 5 Bitcoin or 10 Bitcoin or 30 Bitcoin, whatever that number is. And then we are pitching that person on this is the right way to hold your Bitcoin.
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
Zac Townsend: If you're not going to sell it and you have all sorts of other trusts and tax and estate planning. We're the right tool for that diversification decision you've already made, which is to own some Bitcoin. So we like to say it's great that BlackRock and Fidelity are out there telling everyone to put 1% of their net worth, their retirement savings, or their net worth in Bitcoin. But why would you do that through a ETF? Like, in every other situation, if you're wealthy or you're thinking about wealth preservation, you would think about a life insurance policy, you would think about a trust, you would think about various tax structures. Anyway, so those are like the two different types of diversification we talked about.
Richard Carthon: And I think that's a good thing to touch on. And like you were starting to get into, and I think we can spend some time on it, which is the ability to lend against it. Right. So you have your whole life insurance policy. However much you have in there, you can potentially lend against it. Now, for some people, they might be like, well, what about what happened with Celsius? What happened with BlockFi? Everything else. From a security standpoint, how is Meanwhile protecting? But also from a lending standpoint, what are some of the benefits of being able to do something like that? Yes.
Zac Townsend: Well, so let me just take a step back and say that the core mechanics of the policy are you pay us some amount of Bitcoin that you choose. over a 10 year period. So I'll just use round numbers. These are big numbers, though, like you pay one Bitcoin a year for 10 years. So that's 10 Bitcoin. And then we promise you a fixed guaranteed payout that's bigger than that. So that might be 13 Bitcoin or 14 Bitcoin or 15 Bitcoin. You know, depends on your age and underwriting and stuff. So. Mechanically, we do get yield on the Bitcoin. We promise you 2% returns. There's a lot of math, but that's basically what you're getting. And we seek about 3% returns. That spread is how we make money. And look, we fundamentally do this very boring thing in TradPi, which is private credit, but in Bitcoin. And that sounds really scary because of LotFi, because of Celsius, but we are not getting 12% yields. There are no safe 12% yields in Bitcoin. We are trying to get 3% yields. And we do that by lending Bitcoin to big institutional counterparties that you know the name of, tons of collateral, covenants, parental guarantees. We're doing that mechanically and very conservatively to get that little bit of yield. Now, on the policy loan side, I should say our regulators are watching us. We have to post capital ourselves, like any insurance company. So we have all this first loss buffer capital. our own Bitcoin. We have a chief risk officer, chief compliance officer, independent board. We're running an insurance company. And then the borrowing against your own policy, the aspect of that is you put in 10, it has this account value that's compounding over time. and then you can borrow value out. But because we follow all these rules in the Internal Revenue Code to make it like a life insurance policy, you can do that borrowing tax-free. What does that mean? It means if Bitcoin goes from $100,000 to $1,000,000 or $10,000,000, or I think Michael Saylor says $13,000,000, that you would then be able to borrow one of your own Bitcoin back out tax-free, which means that the capital gains that you would owe between now and that borrowing, well, there'd be no capital gains, right? So again, when we talk to someone about diversifying their portfolio of Bitcoin assets, we talk about to someone who's like diversifying their overall asset allocation with some Bitcoin, this is very attractive to access value even in your own lifetime. So it's not just about saving for your wife or my kids, it is about also having the right tool for tax-free liquidity. And what's nice also about that is there's no margin lending, sorry, there's no margining, there's no way to get blown out of your position, because what we charge you for that loan is that exact 3% that we would earn otherwise. And you can never end up owing us more money than we owe you. So you just die. It's netted. The loan's netted out. Yeah, our dream is that everyone takes the maximum policy loan possible.
Richard Carthon: Yeah, um, it makes sense. And, you know, obviously, you put a lot of time, effort, energy into this so much. So you recently just announced your $40 million raise. So congrats on that. Thank you. Um, with what you've been able to raise and build to this point, what's the like, scope of the next 12 to 18 months look like for meanwhile?
Zac Townsend: Yeah, well first in the $40 million raise, so that takes our total funding to $61 million. Congrats. And we were really fortunate in that round. We had two folks who just are from like different ends of crypto land. So Framework, which is like a preeminent like DeFi, like on-chain finance firm. And then Folger, which I think is the preeminent fund right now in like real Bitcoin, but where they share an overlap is like financial services through Bitcoin, like institutionalization of Bitcoin. And then the only other investor in the round was Wences, who was like patient zero. I think he introduced Peter Thiel and Reid Hoffman and others to Bitcoin. Just so happy with that round. And then what we're doing with it, one is international expansion. So we have thousands of people on a wait list that live all over the world. And we just need to build like, know your customer, any money laundering and underwriting infrastructure. So that's like a slow and steady rollout. And the second thing that we're working on that's super exciting, we're not ready to launch yet, is an annuity. Really? In Bitcoin. Wow. So same thing, it'd be Bitcoin in, Bitcoin out. So you'd put Bitcoin in and then, you know, it could be compounding tax free. You can make withdrawals under a certain age tax free. And we would offer a crediting rate. Yeah, entirely in Bitcoin. And that's really amazing. I think for going to be amazing for our American users. But also some of the annuity like structures globally are like super tax advantaged. So we're just really excited about being able to bring again that idea of long term savings in all the product types that, you know, big incumbent insurers can offer just you know, we'll release like one product a year.
Richard Carthon: Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, again, I don't know that there's a Bitcoin annuity. Yeah. Yeah. You're really bringing all the financial tools over in the crypto, in Bitcoin specifically. And I think there's going to be a lot of appetite for people who are from TradFi that are coming over and who most people that introduction is Bitcoin. Like, yeah, there's there's a lot of alignment with that. So the vision of it makes it both. Let's talk about the vision, right? So as you're looking out into, you know, the next five, 10 years, and you're thinking about world's largest life insurer. Right. That's where you're headed.
Zac Townsend: That first line in the memo for the Series A. That's awesome. Yeah. Look, we think that, again, if you're in America, you've seen this depreciation. But if you're in Argentina, Nigeria, India, Turkey, you've seen even much higher inflation. We believe that there are hundreds of millions, billions of people around the world who you know, want to save for their children, want to protect their loved ones, want to plan for their retirement. And we think the absolute best tool to do that, maybe not day to day, but decade to decade is going to be Bitcoin. And like, we think we're building like the defining, a defining institution of the Bitcoin economy. And then we are riding a wave of the Bitcoin economy, like taking over the world.
Richard Carthon: So I can definitely see that there's people here that are listening to this and they're like, there's two things that are probably happening. They're like, that sounds like a grand vision. I've been thinking about whole life insurance or just thinking about like insurance period. What does that process look like? Right. So like, I've listened to this right now. I'm I'm I'm excited. What are those next steps to even like potentially be considered to be able to get a policy? Yeah.
Zac Townsend: So you go to meanwhile.bm, which is Bermuda's top-level domain. Meanwhile.bm, you sign up. We actually pre-underwrite, like after you fill out a 10-question form, we tend to pre-underwrite you in publicly available data. We do make sure you're not a terrorist and other anti-money laundering things. And if you pass all that, because we don't want anyone to have to fill out the whole application if we're just likely to, we're gonna reject you on publicly available information. And then there's a whole application and it's like, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, it's a life insurance application. Do you have a history of cancer? Do you have a proclivity to skydiving? There are certain things that life insurance companies don't like to underwrite. And then you get through that and we get most folks through maybe 24 hours if they're eager to get it done. And then, yeah, you hit a premium and you're a policyholder. But no, and critically, because of that publicly available information and also the questions we ask, we don't do any like flood work or EKG. So it's pretty straightforward.
Richard Carthon: Yeah. Which I think, you know, for a lot of people in the VTC space, I would say anonymity, but like getting too into the weeds of like personal information, I imagine could be interesting. And the fact that you are not having...
Zac Townsend: We do get so many, obviously we have to ask Phil this question. I actually sometimes get asked this question from more like DeFi type folks, like, oh, why don't you do this on chain? And I'm like, oh, well, the reason is, like, we couldn't figure out how to do underwriting. Because you have to be like, here's my entire medical history. Here's like all the prescription drugs I've ever taken. It's like, it's invasive. And finding a way to do that in a more decentralized way, like, it's just something that we have an aspiration to do, but like couldn't, really figure out. So that's like part of like why we're this more like centralized institution. Also, we could, we, look, I think in everyone's, every Bitcoiner's heart, there's like a desire of self-sovereignty and self-gusty, and there's like a hatred of taxes. And like, those things are actually somewhat intention, because the way, you know, the various tax rules work, often you like need an arm's length counterparty and stuff like that. So, we're happy to be that trusted institution and really proud that, So many policyholders have trusted. I mean, when we started this business, I was the first policyholder. So it wasn't a huge amount of Bitcoin that got on that first policy. And now, you know, we have hundreds of Bitcoin from users, which
Richard Carthon: yeah is a real I mean a real testament to what we built. Which goes kind of to by having that which is allowing you to have that two percent that you were basically talking about um and with the bowl of getting it to three so for for people who are listening to this like theirs might not perk up to that but like why is that such a big deal?
Zac Townsend: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a big deal. Fundamentally, we have this view that there's going to be a Bitcoin economy and that is going to be an economic system like any other. And for that to be true, Bitcoin is going to have to be money. Not gold in the ground, but money in the world. And if it is money in the world, there are going to be capital markets, there are going to be debt capital markets. And we simplify this whole idea. It's very wonky to say this, but like we believe there'll be a yield curve in Bitcoin. Like there'll be like a rate of return that you could be like, this is the typical rate to borrow Bitcoin a year or two years or five years or 10 years. We don't do anything longer than having right now, but we think as the space matures, there'll be more of that. So we see our business as doing two very fundamental things that insurance companies do, which is one, provide this critical financial service and tax planning and estate planning and being trusted by our users. And the other is, again, in a world where so much of Bitcoin is like, And crypto is like number go off. So yeah, all time high this week. We're we're building for 10, 20, 30, 40 years in the future. And, you know, trying to operate the asset management side of our business with those sorts of horizons, tenors, and duration. It's funny, it doesn't feel important sometimes to our typical user. They just really want to make sure we're not going to Block by that shit. Yeah, but I think to some of our like trad Phi Like intense financial service people. They're like, oh like this is this is what's needed Like make the space really work in the long term and you know, we've talked a lot about this life insurance Obviously this long-term vision.
Richard Carthon: What is the long-term impacts that you're hoping that meanwhile is going to be able to create by providing a
Zac Townsend: Yeah, I mean, I just think fundamentally, if you have a durable store of value, it allows people to think in different terms. It allows them to think differently again, year over year, decade over decade. And that means like that gives people a horizon to look toward and to plan around. Whereas actually, I think we all implicitly walk around with this assumption that the value of our currency is going to be to base 2% a year. And I don't even think you have to get into like deep monetary theory to think like, oh, that's a little that's sort of weird to have that relationship to long term value. Yeah. So that that's all we want to enable in the world is even if you're as I said, a middle class person in Argentina or in Lagos that you can say, oh, this is even if I could only put aside a couple of satoshis or a couple of thousand satoshis, that makes sense. You know, I'm I'm passing something on. I'm creating a legacy. I'm not I'm generating and preserving. Well, I think that that is something that everyone in the world deserves.
Richard Carthon: I think so too. I think it's already created generational wealth for a lot of people. And I think there's even more to be had and people know about these types of tools of diversification that they can have. So I think that was a great answer. And, you know, we've learned a lot about Meanwhile and what you're building, but now I'm excited to learn a little bit more about you. We're going to do that with this next segment called Edgequick Headers. Are you with me? OK, yeah. Let's do it. All right. So, Edgequick hitters are a fun and quick way to get to know you a little better. There are 10 questions, and we're looking for just a short, single or few word response. But feel free to expand if you get the urge. Ready to go? Okay. All right. What's the first thing you remember purchasing in your life?
Zac Townsend: Wow, I have no idea. A Magic of the Gathering card.
Richard Carthon: Age six, probably. Great. And on the other side of it, what would you say is the first thing you remember selling? Oh man, um...
Zac Townsend: I don't know. I, uh, probably, you know, I literally probably like lemonade. Um, I, it's funny. My son, uh, has this like whole production with his friends where he's gotten a bunch of them to like make art things in recess and then they sell them to other folks. And he has done this completely unprompted. I don't, I don't have a story about that like that though. I don't know. Yeah, well, we'll go eliminate.
Richard Carthon: That's a good one. But also your son hustling already. Yeah, I know. I know. I'm like, he's that's a little scary. Yeah. What is the most recent thing you purchased? Breakfast. Good answer. We're in Vegas. Makes sense. What is the most recent thing you've sold?
Zac Townsend: Yeah, Bitcoin life insurance policy.
Richard Carthon: Good one. What would you consider your most prized possession? Outside of your family, of course.
Zac Townsend: Outside of my family. Wow, I'm really like unsentimental. What's like the most useful thing in my life? You know, I cook dinner for the family almost every night. So what really came to mind was like, good cast iron pan, you know. I have a nice, like, knife, you know. I don't know. What's your go-to meal? So if you're coming over and you're trying to really, like, show, like, oh, yeah, this is it. Oh, I don't know. That's because, you know, I'm I'm cooking mostly for a three and a seven year old. So, you know, there's a lot of. I'll tell you, though, so I lost like 100 pounds in 2014. My go-to meal then, because I did keto, was just like pork chop and broccoli. You know, it's simple, but done right, like so delicious.
Richard Carthon: If you could buy anything in the world, digital, physical, service experience, that is currently for sale, and money wasn't an issue, what would it be?
Zac Townsend: Buy anything in the world, um... I don't know, the first thing that came to my mind is such a pretentious and standard answer, which is, I have flown private once, particularly with kids, and I'm like, I do see it. Walking onto the plane and it goes. So maybe that, but that's such like a standard, like, oh, I have money answer. I don't know. We haven't heard that one too much.
Richard Carthon: But I get it, bro. Like, yeah, man.
Zac Townsend: But it really does sound pretentious. Like, oh, I'd fly private. I don't know. You know, I, I, um, you know, you, you, you mark off family and some of these answers and, you know, we just, just bought like a slightly bigger house, um, and something all that fancy, uh, you know, absurd, absurdly expensive cause we live in the Bay area. Uh, but yeah, that sense of home, I think is really important. I grew up, um, quite working class. My dad was a postman, my mother was a waitress. I moved around a bunch. So I think I'm really coming to appreciate a sense of family stability. And I'd under-appreciated how a physical place would make that. but but you know like my wife and i have talked about like oh if we had an infinite number of dollars maybe we get a slightly bigger house but i i don't need a Like a mess? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like estates and grounds and, you know.
Richard Carthon: I guess you, hey, both answers are good and completely understand both of them. What's your answer to that question? Oh, mine's different. Mine would be more on the experience side. Me and my wife really want to travel the world. So like, I would like literally probably like... Would you love to travel the world in a private jet?
Zac Townsend: That's his experience. Is that an option? Yes. 100% I should say though. You're you're right my wife and I We don't trade gifts We trade experiences trades the wrong way we gift each other experiences not physical gifts And it's something that we like started very early in our relationship Yeah trips or actually our anniversary was earlier this week and we actually just went over and like a really long walk together.
Richard Carthon: I think it goes further. You get to like enjoy it more and it feels more impactful. So I'm with you on that.
Zac Townsend: We actually bought our kids for Christmas. We gave kids their Christmas present this year was Disneyland. Which was like a two-for, because we were going to have to take them to Disneyland anyway, but then we... Yeah, but... Great, good.
Richard Carthon: Kids are going to remember that forever. Yeah. If you could pass on one of your personality traits to the next generation, what would it be?
Zac Townsend: You know, the one I think a lot about is... Again, somewhat cliche, but like, like grit, perseverance. You know, I mean, like starting a life insurance company. It's a lot of weeds. There's a lot of like... Oh my goodness. You know, the tax implications of an offshore life insurance company. I didn't even imagine becoming an expert in this, huh? And you just have to slog through, right? To like get the thing you want to get done, done. And I think about that a lot with my children. My children are... They're... And we never tell the kids they're smart. We tell them like, oh, you must have worked so hard. You must have practiced. And it's something my wife and I were aligned on right from the start. And I think trying to inculcate in them that like, because if you tell them that they're so smart, then eventually it'll be something they're like, you can't get through just being smart. So that sense that like every problem Not every problem, but like the way you do things is by doing them and like working hard and Actually to go to the company this is something I actually really hire for and it's so hard is like just agency just the understanding that like Every single thing this this couch this camera that whatever the hell this thing is like someone built it they designed it they made choices and it was willful and And that comes from doing, and persevering, and just continuing. And that's what I want for the next generation.
Richard Carthon: That's a really good one. And I think the way that you and your wife are going about raising your kids through that, I think it's an awesome way to do that. On the flip side, if you could eliminate one of your personality traits for the next generation, what would it be?
SPEAKER_02: I could be talking English.
Zac Townsend: You know, gluttony. You know, we've done this show a lot. That is the first time I've... If they could only eat half a chocolate cake, you know, they'd probably be better off. Gotcha.
Richard Carthon: Oh, man. That's hilarious. I'm just going to leave that with you. What did you do right before joining us for this podcast? I taped another podcast, but one that was not as good. All right, well, I'm glad you're enjoying this one, for sure. And what are you gonna be doing after this podcast?
Zac Townsend: Uh, you know what? I've got no idea. Uh, there's a bunch of happy hours and parties and stuff, but I'm, when we're done with this show, I will get on my phone and it will tell me what is next in my day.
Richard Carthon: Nice, man. Well, we always like to wrap up with a nice bonus. And, um, you know, obviously family is a big thing for you, uh, for someone who is, uh, thinking about like next steps, whether that's like getting a wife or start a family, whatever it is like, what was one of the biggest lessons that you've learned through it all?
Zac Townsend: When you said that, again my first thought was just like... And I'm sure you did. You just got to have a good partner. Actually, I'd say both in companies. So like a good partner is critical, but then also like a life partner. And I think in probably either instance, people aren't as deliberate as they should be. I'll tell you a fun fact that I think is not broadly known, which is my co-founder and my wife are born on the same day. Wow. Not the same birthday, same birthday, same year, which is a little creeping. Uh, so I guess I'm like, really, whatever was about the stars that day. Yeah.
Richard Carthon: White partners for me. Yeah. Awesome, man. Well, definitely appreciate all the wisdom and everything you joined us. I definitely feel like I learned a lot more about you. As we're kind of wrapping up here for people who want to learn more about Meanwhile, actually before Meanwhile, we have a final segment called shout outs. Obviously, there's a lot going on to make Meanwhile happen. And there's a lot of people that necessarily like get their flowers or get to get shout out for all the things that they've done. So this is your moment to shout out whomever you'd like.
Zac Townsend: Oh, number one on the list. My wife, Jessica. uh could not run do the company without her literally watching the kids while i'm here but also like nights weekends um and then yeah i mean look uh The whole, everyone in the company is super valuable and important. Max, she's my co-founder. And also, I think we didn't know we needed this person, but our head of insurance, his name's Jim Crostallo, he joined, he's the longest-senior employee, great guy, like 21, 22 years in New York life. led the individual life insurance business, like had a midlife crisis, as I put it, I'm not sure he'd characterize it that way, decided to work in crypto or decide to work in Bitcoin and join our company. And meanwhile, like wouldn't be possible without him. And then, you know, look, we have so many investors, people like varying degrees of support. So I'll go with my wife, Jessica, Max, my co-founder, Jim, really everyone who works in the company, all the investors, man. And then, you know, it's a whole series of mentors, supporters, way too many to name, but you know.
Richard Carthon: Yeah, well that's been your shout out, so thank you for doing that. As we wrap, for people who want to learn more about Meanwhile or potentially be able to connect with you, what are ways that they can do that?
Zac Townsend: Yes, so meanwhile lives at meanwhile.pm. If you can't remember that, meanwhile.com does redirect. And I'm Z Townsend on Twitter. And if you sign up on the website, literally, a literal human being reaches out to every single person who signs up on the website. Whether that's me or my colleague, Danny, or another colleague, Jason, we offer to get on the phone with every single person. It's such a big decision to send Bitcoin to anyone else in the world. We take that trust and that responsibility quite seriously. So we are happy and willing to talk to people as much as it takes. So those are the ways. Meanwhile.bm.
Richard Carthon: We really appreciate it, Zach. Thank you so much. You got some of this, man. That's great. I'm sure. Take care, man.

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