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In this powerhouse episode of The Edge of Show, host Josh Kriger gathers titans of the Bitcoin space to dive deep into the accelerating trend of Bitcoin institutional investment. As the market shifts, traditional finance titans like BlackRock and Fidelity are stepping into crypto with unprecedented force, driving adoption via Bitcoin ETFs and institutional-grade DeFi platforms. Panelists include Tobi Bauer (Venture Capitalist & Early BitLayer Investor), Romain Bourgais (GP at Asymmetric), and Dan Held (CPO at Midas), who break down the future of Bitcoin as a store of value, the real impact of ETF accessibility, and how the landscape of Bitcoin DeFi is set to explode. Whether you’re in Web3, crypto, or NFT innovation, this talk isn’t just insightful—it’s a must-listen blueprint for what’s next. Get ready to see how institutions are moving from cautious observers to confident investors in the Bitcoin economy.
Key Topics Covered:
- Why Institutions Are Finally Buying Bitcoin: Romain explains how Bitcoin dramatically improves portfolio Sharpe ratios, driving serious interest.
- Impact of Bitcoin ETF Adoption: Dan outlines how ETFs eliminate user friction and solve Bitcoin's "unit bias" problem.
- Asia’s Role in Bitcoin Adoption: Tobi shares how family offices and telecoms in Singapore and Hong Kong are allocating Bitcoin on their balance sheets.
- The Rise of Bitcoin DeFi: Romain dives into why DeFi on Bitcoin is the biggest untapped opportunity in crypto.
- Real-World Assets & Bitcoin DeFi: Tobi and Dan discuss how real-world assets like T-bills and real estate will attract institutions to DeFi.
Episode Highlights:
"If you add Bitcoin to your portfolio—even 1%—it improves your Sharpe ratio." – Romain Bourgais
"The Spot Bitcoin ETF solves the UX problem and the unit bias problem." – Dan Held
"Telcos in Asia are holding Bitcoin on their balance sheets. That’s a huge leap." – Tobi Bauer
"Institutions don’t care about DeFi now, but if Bitcoin captures 1% TVL, it dominates everything." – Romain Bourgais
"We’ll have AI agents doing our portfolio risk management. It’s coming fast." – Dan Held
People and Resources Mentioned:
About Our Guests:
Tobi Bauer is a seasoned venture capitalist focused on early-stage crypto and Web3 investments. A founding investor in BitLayer, he has deep roots in Asia’s blockchain scene, having worked closely with influential founders in China, Singapore, and Hong Kong.
Romain Bourgais is the General Partner at Asymmetric, a Bitcoin DeFi-focused VC fund. A crypto veteran with over 12 years in the industry, he’s previously held executive roles including CMO at Kraken and is known for bold insights into Bitcoin's future.
Dan Held is the Chief Product Officer at Midas, a platform focused on tokenized, yield-generating Bitcoin strategies. He previously led product at Ondo Finance and is a vocal advocate for improving user experience in crypto investing.
Guest Contacts:
Dan Held: LinkedIn | Twitter | Website
Transcript:
Josh Kriger: Chair doesn't love to give up the mic. All right. Thank you all of you for joining us. And I know it's been a lot of talks this week and today, but this is definitely going to be a great one. We have some titans in the industry that can give us a lot of perspective on what's actually happening. in the Bitcoin ecosystem from an institutional role. We learned today how, you know, BitLair is backed by big institutions like Franklin Templeton. And it's really important to think about the institutional perspective. We've been talking about it for years, but I think the time is finally here where, you know, folks like BlackRock are taking are all in, they're in the industry. So thank you guys for joining us. Maybe just quickly, we'll just go around and talk a little bit about what you guys do very briefly, and then we'll get into the questions. Let's start with you, Toby.
Tobi Bauer : Yeah, thanks so much for being here and for having me. We run a venture capital fund. We invest in early stage projects typically between half a million dollars to two million dollars. Also proud investors into BitLayer. I know Charlie since 2017 when we all lived in China. And yeah, happy to be here. And if anyone's building something exciting in a space, happy to have a chat.
Romain Bourgais: And Dan? I am the GP of Asymmetric, which is a Bitcoin DeFi venture fund. We also are an investor in BitLayer. Love Charlie. He's relentless. Definitely what we look for in founders. And we've also invested in a bunch of other Bitcoin L2s as well. So that's what I do currently, but I've been in crypto for about 12 years. Last corporate role as CMO at Kraken.
Josh Kriger: We've heard about those guys.
Romain Bourgais: Romain?
Dan Held : Yeah, so hi everybody, thrilled to be here, thank you for having me. So I am CPO at Midas, Midas.app. We are basically tokenizing stuff. So lots of stuff, going from TBL to Bitcoin-dominated strategies, so yield-bearing Bitcoin, basically. Prior to this, I used to lead product at Ondo Finance, ONDO. And yeah, so, well, don't hesitate to come to me after and we can chat more.
Josh Kriger: All right, and full disclosure, I'm also an investor in BitLair, and I've known Charlie since 2017 as well. I think there's a trend in the room. We all love Charlie. But we also love more market action and more folks joining the Bitcoin ecosystem. So I'd love to ask you gentlemen, what do you believe is the most compelling reason for institutional investors to consider Bitcoin as part of their strategy, I remember some of those family office conferences where people were totally sketched out by the idea of putting money into Bitcoin and Ethereum. And then, you know, last year there was some, yeah, maybe 1-2%, and now there's some serious consideration about it. What are the conversations you're having with institutions and the reasons you're giving them for getting into the ecosystem? Anyone can start.
Romain Bourgais: Sure, I'll give it a first stab. So from a basic portfolio construction perspective, if you look at modern portfolio theory, modern portfolio theory is how do you construct a modern portfolio of different types of assets. If you add Bitcoin to your portfolio, even if it's only 1% of your portfolio, it improves something called your Sharpe ratio. Your Sharpe ratio is what is your return per unit of risk that you are taking. So even if you didn't care about Bitcoin at all, let's say you didn't care about its properties and believe in it, from pure portfolio construction perspective, its impact on your portfolio's performance is undeniable. So because of Fidelity and BlackRock hard-shelling Bitcoin like Larry Fink on CNBC, we are now making it normalized for financial advisors to start to add Bitcoin to portfolios, which will dramatically improve the performance of these portfolios. at a really improved Sharpe ratio. So from a basic perspective of, do you want to make fucking money? They will do it. And they like making money. They like to make a lot of money. So they will do it. And we're already starting to see that. And with the Bitcoin ETF, they now have vehicles to invest into Bitcoin directly without having to onboard with Coinbase, etc. So, you know, I think from a very basic perspective of performance, institutions are excited and they can make fee revenue from products associated with Bitcoin and crypto.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, when I told my financial advisor a year ago, I think approximately Bitcoin was at 35. I'm going to put half my retirement into Bitcoin. He was a little skeptical. Now he's looking at Bitcoin very differently now because he likes to make money too. So I appreciate your sentiments there. Any other thoughts, gentlemen?
Tobi Bauer : Yeah, I'm typically based more in Asia for the last eight years, so I'm kind of speaking a bit more of that part of the world. It's very interesting to see that over the last, I would say, two years or so, more and more family offices, I mean Singapore is a hub for family offices, and all of them are talking about Bitcoin. We have family office conferences now in Singapore that are, you know, playing with the idea of putting up to 15% into Bitcoin. We also have family offices that went even higher than that. And I think it's just obviously like the big companies that are living kind of the trend that now gets more and more also even smaller and more like you know, families or, you know, small investors into the space. But also, very interestingly, the telcos in Singapore, the telcos in Hong Kong are holding Bitcoin on their balance sheet. So I think that was a big, a big jump when it happened in 2024, when Singtel, I believe, for example, started buying Bitcoin on their balance sheet. And I mean, these are very old Asian organizations, right? And for them to making that jump is obviously very, very nice to see. I also lived in China for three years, where a lot of the community came down to Asia, down to Hong Kong, down to Singapore. So from a regulatory angle, it gets much more accessible now. It's a lot more conversations going on that companies are able to do that, that you have licenses to do so. And very interesting, which is not directly related to Bitcoin itself, but we have Sorry, corporate venture funds, for example, KX in Thailand that they spin up a $100 million fund. They're a bank, right? And they're purely investing in Web3. And a big part of their investment thesis is Bitcoin, either from a liquid perspective or investing in projects that are building on Bitcoin, such as BitLay or other ones.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, interesting perspective. And you gentlemen made me think about the real estate market, which is a more traditional asset for these folks. And it hasn't been as friendly the last five or 10 years it has in the past. And I wonder if that's giving them second look at alternatives like Bitcoin. Romain, what are your thoughts there?
Dan Held : Yeah, I'll go with the simple store of value type of answer with this one. I mean, the alternative on this is mainly gold. If you start talking with people about that, they will tell you the gold maxes will basically tell you, okay, so you should hold the gold. well, in a safe place that you own, and well, to make it very liquid, you should own the coins itself. I mean, it can be very cumbersome. And so, given that more and more people, like, see value in Bitcoin as they do see in gold, I think that it is as straightforward as this. I mean, your advisor is now convinced that Bitcoin is a good thing. So eventually, more and more people will just see that there is value in it, and it just makes sense. I mean, the custodians are also really improved over the past years. Like, institutional solutions are there. So, listen to the audience.
Josh Kriger: I hope he's not listening to this, but I outperformed his advice. So, you know, there you go.
Dan Held : You got a discount on the fees, I hope.
Josh Kriger: Yeah. Dan, we've talked about the traditional rational basis for institutions to get in. Let's talk about DeFi, which is a little bit more risky. What are your thoughts there?
Romain Bourgais: Yeah, well, I think that Bitcoin DeFi is the largest opportunity ever to exist in the category. I mean, Bitcoin isn't just the biggest crypto asset. It's bigger than everything else combined. So if you look at TVL on Bitcoin right now, it's like point zero one percent of total market capitalization, whereas Ethereum is like 30 percent. If the amount of like TVL and Bitcoin and these DeFi projects go up to 1%, Bitcoin would be larger than everything else. So when we look at the opportunity size, the TAM here is enormous. This TAM is possibly the biggest opportunity ever to exist in this category. So for any reason, if any reason at all, if we can incept DeFi to happen on Bitcoin, You know, right now, I think there's a lot of anxiety around the security and trust assumptions that are made. But I think it's a marketplace of people deciding what risk levels are appropriate for them. Because if we look at Polygon and one of the first Ethereum L2s, it started as a centrally federated model. So, you know, people were OK with that. I don't like that it's that way. And I think, you know, with things like Opcat and other things where we could upgrade Bitcoin's protocol or we could introduce ways to have a better game theoretic connectivity from the L2 to the Bitcoin L1. That would be ideal. But I think we're going to see a really big blossoming of L2 tech this year.
Josh Kriger: Just a follow up question that occurred to me is, do you think there'll be a day where governments will dabble with Bitcoin DeFi?
Romain Bourgais: I don't see why not. Yeah, I mean, certainly the premise of DeFi is bringing all economic activity on chain eventually.
Josh Kriger: Right on. Any other thoughts, gentlemen, on this question? Well, another part of this, Toby, is sort of real world assets on chain and mixing real world assets with DeFi, with Bitcoin, you know, going beyond sort of the store of value. How do you think early stage Web3 companies that are exploring real world assets and that intersection of Bitcoin will affect institutional perspectives?
Tobi Bauer : I mean, I think there's obviously a lot of companies that are trying to dabbling in this space for a longer period of time now. And I think it will have a positive impact to them, right? I mean, what startups are very, really good at is trying to find out new ways of how to do it, right? And they're doing it in a speed and in a mechanism that institutions not always have the capabilities immediately to do so because they're a lot more driven by regulations, they have more red tape, and obviously, you know, just more capital that they're going to be doing it with. But I think it shows a very good trajectory of like what is possible, what is secure, where are the challenges. And that gives a pathway for institutions to then dabble in. I mean, it's the same with Bitcoin, right? They didn't do it from day one. It took them a couple of years to get adopted. But a lot of projects have done DeFi and Bitcoin and many other things before that. And now I think we're in a trajectory where these institutions understand that this is a massive industry. I mean, tokenizing of real world assets is tremendous, right? From a loan perspective, real estate perspective. And I think that will lead that pathway for them to get access.
Josh Kriger: Romain, feel free to elaborate there. And also just thinking about this from a product perspective as a CPO, do you think our products are ready for institutions to get excited about real world assets and DeFi?
Dan Held : Yeah, definitely. I mean, we're getting there. Regulation is becoming, well, clearer and clearer over time, so that helps, definitely. RWAs means anything and nothing at the same time. So it's, well, those days it starts with T-bills, but it can be any yield-bearing strategies that can be considered as, well, basically a security that is an RWA. But it can also be, well, estate. So things like this. The more adoption RWA will get over time on chain, the easier it will be for those institutions to get access to those. And once they will see the potential of, okay, so, actually, I can do, well, Lombard credits, like at a higher LTV compared to my traditional rails. All of a sudden, it may become more interesting to them to use just DeFi instead of their TradFi rails. And they will start thinking, oh, well, I believe in blockchain and therefore I want to buy Bitcoin. So I think that this is a way, a path to basically allow, well, yeah, more adoption through RWAs, a kind of a halo effect. You just loan Bitcoin because you see the value of the tech.
Josh Kriger: So we've talked about the case for both just holding Bitcoin and then exploring these more sort of advanced technologies. But there is sort of challenges that are holding institutions back. Volatility. Just the fact that these are older organizations, what are the other challenges that you guys see and how do you sort of, you know, converse with institutions when you're sort of in the throes of heated conversations about how these challenges can be overcome?
Romain Bourgais: You know, I think a lot of the career risk has been removed. Before it wasn't, for your career in TradFi, it would have been very dangerous to recommend Bitcoin internally. But now with, I mean, I cannot emphasize enough how big of a deal it is to have Larry Fink on stage and on CNBC shouting from the rooftops, Bitcoin's gold 2.0, buy it. iBit, his ETF, iBit is the most successful ETF in the history of ETFs. Institutions all noticed that. That's a big deal. So his credibility, though, de-risks from a career perspective of working or advocating for crypto. I think that was huge. Fidelity has been championing Bitcoin for almost eight years now. That's really big as well. But I think we're going to see a tidal wave, you know, with Trump being elected and all those SEC lawsuits being dropped. We're going to see a tidal wave of DeFi and Bitcoin and crypto being accepted by major institutions because there's no regulatory risk at all. What do you think the timeline is on this? Immediately. All the SEC lawsuits were all dropped this last week.
Josh Kriger: Change is coming. Other thoughts? Any other challenges? Dan's clearly optimistic, but are there additional challenges?
Dan Held : I'm pretty much aligned. Well the market is maturing like volatility. Well even though it was quite bad those past few days but volatility is reducing like derivative markets also started well maturing as well. So it's growing every day. So I mean there is less and less barrier.
Tobi Bauer : I think there's definitely agree both of you right but we still see and maybe that's like more Asia part of the world I'm not sure I'm not so often in the US but there's still a lot of hesitation right when we talk to bigger asset managers and family office, they all understand and they all see that these massive companies are doing it and they all understand that it's been doing really well. It's not that they're blind or don't want to see it. They all understand it to an extent, but there's still always that security risk and what is the public perception going to do and then you have Some big hack that I mean that not all of them are obviously super extremely well educated about the space right there see a big hack by what happening and then they think oh this is another big thing that's going to bring this industry to. a challenge. So I think as much as many, many people are understanding how important it is, and obviously from a money-making perspective, how this will change, I think there's still some hesitation in especially like more older, bigger institutions to really make that pull, right, pull the trigger and get in. But I think, yeah, definitely the U.S. is paving the way here, I think.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, I was actually surprised that the Bybit hack didn't create more shockwaves in our industry than it did. It sort of was interesting to me in terms of, I mean, it definitely... They managed it well. Yeah. Yeah, they did. Fortunately, there's some learning there. You know, I guess my other question for you, Toby, is like, you guys are more pioneering. You're placing bets earlier on some of the more emerging nascent technology in the space. Do you think that institutions look at what venture capital is doing more seriously now than they did before and sort of are mirroring some of those same ideas?
Tobi Bauer : I think there's two sides. Some of our LPs are more traditional non-crypto companies, like Telco Place or banks and stuff like that. They're definitely looking, but I do also, some of the stuff we invest in is completely off the radar for these guys. Investing in, I don't know, DeFi on Bitcoin or in AI agents, that's a little bit of a stretch. But what I see from these guys is still that they're very, very interested, right? I mean, they join all of our ICs that we have for the extended piece, and they're asking a ton of questions, and they're even sending us deals that they're seeing. I mean, I wouldn't say that they're always the best, but at least they're getting engaged, right? And that was very different from the previous fund we had. We had less of I would say non-crypto native investors.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, I appreciate that. So Tim Draper came on our show and talked about how he's using his AI avatar to sort of give briefs about his portfolio. Dan, do you see where you're sort of sharing updates to these institutions on your portfolio, but it's your blockchain powered agent? Is that going to sort of put them over the fence or just scare them away? And what have been other memorable conversations you've had with institutions about some of the plays that you've done that you feel have swayed them?
Romain Bourgais: Well, I'm not, you know, I agree that I think Bitcoin DeFi is pretty esoteric for them. I don't think they would be interested in that. I think it's a little too early for that conversation. So, you know, if we're if I'm talking to a major institution, which I've been brought into the room to give talks on Bitcoin at major institutions across the world. It's the store value goal 2.0 narrative. That's the most palatable, easy to understand one. Yeah, they're not going to really get Bitcoin DeFi or AI agents. I think those are a little, I don't want to scare them. Yeah, it's a little too crazy. So I agree with your thoughts on that.
Josh Kriger: Eventually, maybe you can, your avatar can give the talk so you can be in several places at once, but not yet.
Romain Bourgais: That would be a lot better for my travel schedule. Yeah.
Josh Kriger: Yeah. Melatonin isn't cutting it for me anymore. Fair enough. Well, another question to all you guys is we started to talk about things opening up. I was just in Hong Kong. I think a lot of you in the room were there. We all took these crazy flights back here. A lot of people came through LA. Things are opening up there. You know, there's recently some stable coin legislation in Dubai that was really interesting. And of course, tons happening on the Hill. How is the regulatory environment shifting affecting the broader Bitcoin ecosystem? Anyone's thoughts first?
Tobi Bauer : I mean, I can just go first. I think I'm You know mostly traveling between Hong Kong and Singapore and Dubai and stuff like this. I'm more like in this part of the world and we have a lot of Conversations and and workshops where the government is actively coming to people in the industry to understand what the challenges are It's still I mean, most of the time, politics is very reactive, right? It has to grow to a certain extent, something has to happen, and then eventually, people wake up and be like, oh, we need to regulate this industry, right? And I think some of the smaller countries, because I mean, China obviously banned it to an extent, and that shifted a lot of the focus and people towards Hong Kong and Singapore, and they obviously tried to be a little bit more on the forefront, I would say, but it's still very, very difficult, right? For a VC fund to get a license, if you touch anything in crypto, it takes roughly 12 months in Singapore, right? Even though a lot of people say like that is a very upfront thinking you know, jurisdiction. But then you have like the UAE, for example, that especially in Abu Dhabi is trying to get heavily into crypto, into Bitcoin and try to get people excited to come there. And it just becomes a lot simpler. So I think it really depends on where you are looking in the world. I don't want to start with Europe. I think Europe has A lot of challenges. And I'm from Germany, so there's a reason I'm not so much dimed anymore. But I think that the US will be a very promising piece here.
Josh Kriger: So Dan, same question, but maybe you can talk about the impact of spot Bitcoin ETFs as well.
Romain Bourgais: Yeah, the Spot Bitcoin ETF was one of the best things ever to happen to Bitcoin. The Winklevoss twins were the original folks that tried to submit a Bitcoin ETF for approval by the SEC in 2013. It's taken us almost a decade. And the Bitcoin ETF is phenomenal because it solves a couple of problems. One, I don't have to wire my money to Coinbase or Kraken, sign up for an account, place an order, and then I own Bitcoin. Instead, you go to your brokerage, one-click buy, and you've got it in your portfolio. So massive UX improvement. Also, there's a common problem with Bitcoin or there's a problem with Bitcoin. It has something called a unit bias problem. I get asked a lot, Dan, I want to buy Bitcoin, but it's too expensive. I'm like, what do you mean it's too expensive? They're like, well, it's $80,000 a Bitcoin. I'm like, well, you can buy part of one, right? And most people don't know that. And with the ETFs, those share prices aren't in whole Bitcoin units. It's like $20 a share. And so people buy 1,000 shares of iBit, and they feel like they've got an appropriate amount in their portfolio, versus I think people before would buy like 0.2 Bitcoin, and it doesn't feel as good. So it solves a user experience problem. Obviously, the user experience includes like the easy liquidity to be able to go buy it and also the unit bias problem.
Josh Kriger: I'll admit it. I was lazy. I got some grayscale Bitcoin. I mean it at the moment. I was busy traveling I didn't I didn't have time to do something alternative and I have a crypto IRA, but it's just so easy I think you know simplicity really matters When we people have day jobs, and they're thinking about how to get involved quickly Remain any any other thoughts on that question?
Dan Held : No, really, like the adoption of, like the opening of ETF Bitcoin is really what drove the market, I think, recently. You just have to look at the inflows. I have good hopes that the new administration will also make things better, I think.
Josh Kriger: Fair enough. So we are running short on time. So I'm going to sort of combine some questions a little bit for this last question for each of you, which is sort of looking ahead the next five years. What do you predict will be the most significant developments in Bitcoin's role with an institutional asset allocation? We talked about going from 1% to 5%. What else can we anticipate? And with that in mind, Toby, if you could, oh, sorry. Yeah, let's just, oh, Romain, as you're going through that, thinking about risk management, risk analysis, machine learning, AI, quantum, how does that all play into those decisions institutions are making?
Dan Held : Yeah, so I mean looking really forward then on that on that phone so to be you mentioned AI agents mean like Briefly saying that well, it's not really yet. And so and so on I agree with that It's not it's not really but it's it's it goes fast And so I would not be surprised if that in five years from now and we already start seeing this this type of of use cases, I think Instead of having one agent, you have a team of agents working for you, each with a very specific task. From a risk standpoint, all of a sudden you have an agent that is expert in trading, an agent that is expert in data analysis, the other one that is expert in sentiment analysis, and you also have this type of master agent Coordinating everyone being like the kind of like the general manager of the other agents And I really do believe that this will eventually change the way you do you do risk management You don't need to automate of course like the execution of your trades, but at least you will you will definitely unveil some some some risk in your in your portfolio in your custody in your like I really do think that It will change the world in a few years
Josh Kriger: Dan, five years from now, where are we?
Romain Bourgais: Well, it's going to be a really bullish take, because I'm kind of a permable. You also have to remember, too, when I got into Bitcoin, Bitcoin was like $10. And I'd go on dates, and the girl would ask, she's like, so what do you do for work? And I'm like, oh, I work in Bitcoin. And she's like, so are you like a money launderer or drug dealer or something? So perception was pretty bad for a long time. So if I'm kind of glowing with enthusiasm, it's because Bitcoin survived, thrived, and we're here today, which is awesome. I think it's up only from here in terms of adoption, in terms of more institutions buying Bitcoin and getting into Bitcoin, in terms of retail, in terms of it being acceptable to own in a portfolio. You know, what's funny is this victory over the next 5, 10, 15 years might be more of a quiet victory. Like it's Bitcoin just slowly goes up, more and more people own it, and it might, you know, feel less revolutionary and just more like we've kind of infiltrated the world's economics, like the world's economy.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, I mean people paying with visas that allow them to choose Bitcoin as a currency. Subtle little changes like that that are already happening globally, right? I do remember that moment where I changed my LinkedIn to update it that I was in the blockchain industry. It was like about a year and a half after I was already in the industry, because at that time it was very taboo. And I think, you know, things have already changed. Happy to be in this industry. Don't see myself leaving anytime soon. Toby, any closing thoughts on where this all leads us in five years, in particular around institutional involvement, from the point there are today?
Tobi Bauer : Yeah, I think a big piece is this kind of perception that I think will change. And I think that is what needs to change, right? Most of the people that are not touching bitcoins, I mean, not the people, but the institutions, is because they still have a bad taste to it. They can see that it's working, but they also think that there's something to it that doesn't seem right. It's either too good to be true, or like they say, it's just a short-term thing. But I think in the next five years, we'll normalize this whole thing a little bit more. It will not just be like, okay, crypto is to gamble and has all these degens and all these things. It will be a lot more just like an asset class that people talk about without bringing this kind of you know, DJing world into it and it's just something like we talked about that is relevant for every portfolio that people will use and people understand. And I think once that bad taste is gone and also the media normalizes it maybe a little bit more, it's not as big in talks if something bad happens. It's just something that is around and I think that will give a lot more people the confidence to say like, hey, let's jump in, let's do it and that will benefit the whole industry to itself.
Josh Kriger: Right on, well thank you all for joining us. I encourage our audience, follow these gentlemen on social. They are thought leaders in this space. I learned something from all of you today. In addition, if you like this type of content, I encourage you to check out The Edge of Show, theedgeofshow.com. We are on every distribution channel there is, I think, at this point. YouTube, Spotify, iTunes. We have conversations like this with leaders in the space every week. We also have a newsletter that you can get to from our website, and we do other events. Look for some big information coming soon. Let's give this panel a round of applause. Thank you, guys.
Tobi Bauer : Thank you, Josh.
Josh Kriger: Thank you.
Tobi Bauer : Thanks, Charlie.
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