Beyond The Promises Of Blockchain With Mary Camacho & Josh Hardy From Holochain

November 17, 2023
NFT 304 | Holochain

We’ve almost always equated the next iteration of the internet, i.e., Web3, with the blockchain. That association has stuck so much that it’s almost impossible to consider anything Web3 if it’s not done on the blockchain. Today’s sponsored episode is challenging that notion. Today, we’re talking to Mary Camacho and Josh Hardy of Holochain, the platform that delivers beyond the promises of blockchain by providing a lightweight, secure, and versatile framework for every day distributed apps.  Holochain serves as a neutral territory for scalable coordination, a technology crucial for addressing global challenges and fostering thriving, regenerative, and creative communities and economies. There’s a lot of stuff going on with Holochain, marking a significant inflection point in what would be the future of the internet. Tune in for more!


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Beyond The Promises Of Blockchain With Mary Camacho & JoshHardy From Holochain

This sponsored episode is very special. I'm here with Mary Camacho and Josh Hardy of Holochain, the platform that delivers beyond the promises of blockchain by providing a lightweight, secure, and versatile framework for everyday distributed apps. There's a lot going on in Holochain. I'm excited to unpack it with you both. I learned that Josh here is not in Josh DAO yet, which we're going to quickly resolve. Let me share with our audiences your backgrounds, and then we will get right into it.

Mary is a social scientist with a Master's degree from the University of Chicago. She's very used to cold climates. She boasts over twenty years of experience as a leader, founder, and executive in tech and telecom firms. She has also championed ethics in business communities and played a pivotal role in evolving distributed operations within organizations. Mary has advised numerous startups in strategy, funding, and product development. With Holochain, Mary is driving the launch of innovative tech that delivers immense value in a rapidly changing world of social and political dynamics.

We will talk more about this but for those of you who haven't heard about Holochain, this is something you should know about. Holochain serves as a neutral territory for scalable coordination, a technology crucial for addressing global challenges and fostering thriving, regenerative, and creative communities and economies. Its unique architecture aligns with the ways individuals and processes operate with a strong focus on individual agency and group context. It's very relevant to the conversation.

I love to always meet another Josh. Josh here is an Australian based in London. He's the Web3 builder and co-founder of Rain Protocol, a framework designed to make smart contracts more readable and writeable. With a background in music and songwriting, he collaborates with digital artists in the Web3 space, merging creative and technical skills to drive innovation. At the core, Holochain is a P2P networked data-integrity engine with broad applications including supply chain, value flow, accounting, and remote devices. There's a lot of fun stuff we can talk about but first, what did I miss about Holochain? What do people need to know?

The basic and easiest thing that everybody needs to know is that Holochain is a framework for building distributed peer-to-peer applications. It's that simple. We're talking about the applications that everybody uses every day, whether it's social media, messaging, games, or a lot of great things. We talk about it as something that you can use for supply chain, value flows, and all of that, and it very much is but most people are starting with prototypes, games, small applications, work applications, and all sorts of things like that which make our lives a little bit more disintermediated from Big Tech.

NFT 304 | Holochain
Holochain: Holochain is a framework for building distributed peer-to-peer applications.

It is a big topic. It has been for several decades. What's the backstory on Holochain? How did it start? When did you get involved?

The technical co-founders of Holochain are Arthur Brock and Eric Harris-Braun. They have been working together for more than a decade. They started with the idea of metacurrency. Arthur's background was in community currencies and currency design. When they came together to build Holochain, it was a small part of a much larger project that they were up to in the world, which is transforming the dynamics of how people interact digitally.

With Holochain, the idea was the way we have done everything is fundamentally set up to favor those who are already in charge, those who have power, those who have money, and those who are centralizing everything in technology. In their minds, that puts all the wrong dynamics into society. What they wanted to do was make sure that the tech we were using would enable the sort of society we wanted to live in.

There are other distributed technology L1s using blockchain, and some of them have had challenges with nodes and centralization of decentralized governance where you get these power struggles even within the decentralized world. What's Holochain doing to address that dynamic?

First of all, Holochain is not a blockchain and there's no native currency. Holochain is a completely different beast, monster, or critter. We call it a lot of different things on some days. The idea is that there isn't one single Holochain. Every application is its own Holochain. There isn't this thing happening at the level of the network. You have nodes in an application.

The only reason people are there is because they get value. Every application is running on the computers that the app is installed on. They provide their infrastructure for engaging. It's a very different model. It can interact well with a blockchain because it uses some of the same technical infrastructure, cryptographic libraries, and things like that which allow you to be able to bind and do interfaces with blockchains but it's a different set of infrastructure that you're playing with that you can create different kinds of apps with.

I'll ask you this question too, Josh. What got you excited about Holochain in the first place and got you involved?

I've been business partners with Arthur Brock for many years in various businesses. He's an amazing creator. I found out about this one probably around 2015 or 2016 right at the early stages. I don't think even the first prototype had been built yet when I started working with the organization, which was not quite Holochain yet. We didn't incorporate until 2017 but I've been pretty much part of the gang since the early days.

Our show has been around for a few years. Some of our audiences are OGs. They have been in this space for a long time but a lot of folks got into this space more recently, and it's great for them to be exposed to Holochain and learn more about what technologies are out in the world that might be relevant to what they're building. Josh, I would love to know a little bit about your backstory and how you intersected with Holochain as well.

I live in London, and I have been working on something called Rain Protocol. One of the founders of Rain Protocol is also a core developer on Holochain, David Meister. Through him, I met the Holochain guys. Mary wanted to experiment with how we could mix Holochain with blockchain technology like L1s. I came on to explore that space.

When was that?

That wasn't that long ago.

In Web3, that's a couple of years. How is that going so far?

It's good. I wasn't a Holochain developer before. I don't know if I would call myself a fully-fledged one now but I've built something in Holochain. I was able to onboard and get going. If there are any developers out there who want to try it, don't be scared. It looks intimidating but once you get into it, it's not too bad.

If there are any developers out there who want to try Holochain, don't be scared. It looks intimidating but once you get into it, it's not too bad. Click To Tweet.

I'm excited about what you're doing with that intersection with music. We will talk about that a little bit more. I want to mark this moment in time. I flew in from LA with Audrey on our team, and you're here from abroad. We're at this event. We're calling it the funky Web3 NFT third space at Monroe. It's this cool jazz bar that apparently had a roaring '80s and '90s party. It's a little bit more subdued but intellectual. What are we all doing here? What's going on, Mary?

This is a very strange time. We came to San Francisco for a conference, and that was not meant to be. The conference could not happen. Last minute, we pulled this together, and it's getting started. People are going to be arriving soon. We said, "It's okay. When something changes, it's time for the community to step in and ensure something new is born."

We did that with an event here and we're going to have some fun. Lots of people are going to come together, get to know each other, and network. All the things that are important about a conference anyway happen on the sides of the conference. They don't happen inside the panels and the keynotes. They happen in the hallways, and we all know that. We're participating that way.

Edge of Company is honored to be a media partner. Thanks for having us here and making us part of this. The decentralization of our event was an important thing that we did. We took it to another level and had decentralized land grants from the community to have a booth at our event supporting the locals. We also tried to cultivate a high-vibration networking environment with live art and other things because when you're watching a panel, you're not co-creating. You need a little bit of everything, and this is a critical part of it. I'm excited to do this with you both.

It's fun to be here.

With that context, it would be helpful to dive into Holochain a little bit more, the nuts and bolts of it, and then also talk about some of the use cases. It's enabling decentralized solutions, and that includes new forms of currency, accounting, and key management. Can you elaborate on some of these use cases?

You can build almost anything with Holochain but some of the ways that it was designed were specific for certain kinds of use cases. A couple of things that are the most important is that you always have your private keys. That's normal in crypto. That's not normal in centralized tech. It's a big problem with centralized tech. In building Holochain, we weren't just looking at blockchain. That was on our radar but it wasn't the point for us. It's more at odds with centralized technologies and how are people being controlled by those who own the keys to the kingdom. That's how we think about it.

Key management is a big deal. With Holochain, the first thing you do when you start an app is you're creating your agent key, and then from there, you sign onto the app to create, "This is me in this application space." It's important to integrity because, in every interaction that you have with others, you get to validate the other people or the other peers on the application.

Currency is a big deal though because we are not typically talked about in the currency space because we're not a token type of network. However, what you can build on Holochain is what we call a mutual credit currency, and this comes from some of those currency designs I was saying Arthur was very involved with creating prior to Holochain. What happens with mutual credit currencies is they are always going up and down. It's like accounting. It's less like tokens. Tokens are like, "We're going to mint a bunch of tokens," and they come out of nothing.

The value is determined by the supply, demand, and the tokenomics.

In a ledger that goes up and down and works like an accounting ledger, one side goes up and one side goes down. In a mutual credit currency, it's always functioning more like the accounting of something versus the creation of something and then having it be supply and demand in the market. It can have an effect though.

Does it still enable multi-party stakeholders? In other words, it's not binary, whether it's a buyer or a seller. You can have a more multifaceted economy.

What you do with mutual credit currency is that you have rules about where credit comes from. Who can go negative in the currency is part of the rulemaking. Depending on what you're dealing with, in our case with Holochain, Holochain doesn't have a currency but Holo, which is a for-profit company that the non-profit foundation owns, is a cloud-hosting provider, and it needed a micro-currency to run the payments to cloud nodes. We have built HoloFuel, and this hasn't been released yet. This is still an alpha. It's still getting ready to be released.

It has been a lot of work and time to get here. I remember hearing about HoloFuel. I was a little late to the alpha but not too late because it's not out yet. You have been building for a while.

A lot of that build has been on Holochain, and some of that build has been on Holo, the platform. Holo required a currency, and that is also a mutual credit currency. If you look at what kinds of accounts or nodes get credit limits, not everybody does. Host nodes, because they're providing the service, are the asset value of the network. They're the ones that can have credit lines. Every mutual credit currency has a different design. It would be done for different purposes but it works from a different premise than the way that a lot of cryptocurrency works.

It's worth taking a pause and looking at the concept of Web3. I consider you all a Web3 company. I heard a Twitter Space about this. People are debating, "What is Web3? Where is it going?" Fundamentally, some of what Web3 has been in the last few years has worked. Some haven't. It has been an experiment. I see a lot of alignment in terms of what you're doing with Holo and Holochain in the concept of Web3. I'm curious if you're offended by my observation or if you agree.

It's interesting. We probably don't define ourselves as a Web3 company but we do think we're building part of the next web. I say it that way on purpose because Web3 has become so tied up with blockchain, and sometimes people think, "If you're not doing it on the blockchain, then it can't be Web3." We think we're very aligned with what Web3 is about but because we're not specifically trying to do blockchain technology, we're trying to invent a new internet. There are a lot of partners inventing a new internet. That's what a lot of us want.

That's what a lot of the Web3 community wants. Josh, you're shaking your head.

That was nodding and shaking vertically.

We're not disagreeing on this topic yet. You're new to Holochain but you're not new to Web3. What's your perspective now that you looked under the hood?

I've been saying this to Mary. A lot of dApps should have their front-ends on Holochain because the protocol will be on the blockchain. That's fine. That's decentralized but the way you interact with it is often through a website, and those websites are centralized. Every other day, you see a front-end gets hacked. The password for the domain registrar gets hacked. Suddenly, it gets pointed to a phishing site. People are losing their keys because they're signing transactions that aren't the ones they expected to be signing and losing their money. Something like Holochain where you can have a decentralized self-hosted interaction with the blockchain makes total sense to me. I don't know why. All dApps should be using Holochain or something like Holochain.

I have a little bit of hoodie appreciation going on. Josh is rocking a hoodie that says, "Freedom, research, and creativity."

This is my favorite hoodie.

I've never heard those three words assembled in that way but it's a pretty powerful combination. It resonates with your perspective on all this.

I didn't write those words.

You weren't wearing this hoodie for a particular reason.

I wear this hoodie all the time for the same reason, which is that I agree with it. It resonates with me.

It seems like a lot of what you're trying to do with Holochain is mirror human-to-human natural interactions and experiences through technology. Is that accurate?

Holochain is fundamentally architected differently. When I explain it, I like to say that every time that you're taking an action, it starts first locally, and then you sign cryptographically everything that you do. It gets published into the distributed hash table, and that's where it's validated by peers. That makes a big difference because what it means is data starts here and then goes to a space that's shared, and you get to say how that's shared.

That matters when it comes to thinking about how you architect an application. What we found is that instead of having people think, "Let me architect an application by describing my data," sometimes we have them go, "Tell me what the manual process is because you may want to mimic a manual process instead of mimic the way that you would do it in a centralized database application."

Instead of thinking about how you do it with Oracle or a CRM system like PeopleSoft, you go back to the pure basics of what exactly is happening between Person A and Person B.

Sometimes it's out on the field. We were on a campground one time talking to people about this, "What do you do? You write it here, you take it to your friend, they do something with it, you take it to somebody else, and then they put their stamp on it." Thinking about it in that more procedural human form helps you understand how you might get something done in Holochain better.

You're bringing me back to my former life as a management consultant where we did process flow diagrams. I don't hear about them too often these days but it was a helpful process, especially working with organizations that do certain things over and over again. They don't stop to think about the value chain, how they get from one point to another, and how to simplify that before technology wasn't there, and they weren't using X system to do that.

You know what a CRM is. It's this set of data against which you do three different processes. If you try to take that and model it in Holochain, it's hard because I can't tell you how difficult it is to break up the centralized concept of that data into pieces that people are in control of. It's a very different thing.

We have talked about the essence of Holochain and Holo and the analogy of Web3. Let's get into the realm of NFTs as well. You have this collaboration with Fractal Tribute. Maybe you can walk us through what that collaboration was all about and how that enables the use of blockchain for artists and creators.

Josh and I created this together. He did the development. I did not. Maybe it's not so obvious because I can code, just not as well as he does.

Everyone can code, especially with AI now.

This started way back. I wanted to do music and I started thinking about what I wanted it to do but it wasn't going to happen. We weren't ready. We were getting ready to get to beta on Holochain. It was this idea of our collaborative music and live space. Maybe it could be some creator NFTs that got created and shared and then maybe a concert thing. It was this big mix of a lot of crazy ideas that didn't all flow together very well.

Fast forward, I'm working with Josh on the Web3 prototypes. Another person who works for us in the company, Alistair, went and took a game that a developer, Damien, who is also in our community had worked on, and combined it with some of Josh's NFT work that we were doing for the Web3 prototypes. Suddenly, we had an r/place with making an NFT. I was like, "This is the collaborative art game."

What we added on were a bunch of other parts and pieces to it. We added that it would be something that would have a marketplace internally. You could buy the NFTs on the game itself. The creators of the game would then have a Fractal distribution of any funds that were collected. We took a bit of what Josh was doing with Rain Protocol and some of the things that we were doing with Holochain Web3 prototypes, meshed it all together, and made it a fun game. That's what Fractal Tribute is.

Can I play this game? Am I going to get to play it?

Absolutely. Let me say a couple of things because we have an art collective called DADA. They worked with us, which was so cool. They did all the testing for us and helped us figure out what constraints to add, things like that, and how it would flow. It's running. It's an event-based game. When we launch it, it launches for whatever amount of time we say. We did this one for four days. It ends. You have to play it.

I'm excited to check it out. Josh, is there anything to add to the story here? What gets you excited about this project?

The only thing I would add is how it feels to play it. You download a standalone app.

You download it on your computer.

You install it, and once you open it, you're running a node in the network. There's no server. You start communicating with all the other people who have the game, anyone who has it open, and then they tell you what their current knowledge of the state of the game is. That gets sent to your machine, and then it shows you the state of the board.

There are no vulnerabilities or security issues with this.

This is a game.

It's still a prototype. It's many ways, it's a showcase. We haven't hardened everything from a security perspective on it. The NFTs that are for sale on this marketplace are for $0.02 of MATIC.

A lot of NFTs are for sale for $0.02.

The goal was not to try to make money. It was to show that it's possible and what you can do. There's no blockchain so far. People have copies of the game. You make a move, sign up with your Holochain agent key, and then broadcast that to the network. Other people see your move if it's valid according to the rules of what a move can be. With each move, you can change up to twenty pixels, "These are the colors. This is the dimension of the board." If it's valid, then that person can include it in their understanding and then start broadcasting it to other people. It's like BitTorrent or something in that way.

Where does this all go in terms of the integration potential with blockchain? I know that was part of this experiment as well.

There are a couple of different places. The thing that you didn't talk about was the binding. Immediately, to play, you bind your EVM key to a Holochain key. What that means is that everything that is being created for the NFT is unforgeable. Only the person who is a creator in the game can create the NFT payload and the NFT that's on the blockchain because of that binding. That's a unique structure as far as we understand it.

From the perspective of NFTs, everyone knows that the NFT on-chain is usually unless it's an on-chain NFT a pointer to something else. It's usually a pointer to a JPEG, and that JPEG might be on IPFS, Arweave, or a decentralized storage network. In this case, it's a pointer to a move on the Holochain app. It's better than IPFS because the app is alive, and the app can change. The app is dynamic and it's evolving in real time. We can have people minting NFTs which point to specific things on this evolving app, which has its rules. You have two decentralized networks bound together in a way that's much more powerful than what you could usually do with NFTs.

It's like crossing galaxies or something.

You also don't have to pay gas on Holochain. You get to have all of the fun stuff you could do on the Holochain side. It's gas-free. People don't have to pay to participate. They just pay when they go to mint something on-chain.

You get to have all of the fun stuff you could do on the Holochain side. It's gas-free. People don't have to pay to participate. They just pay when they go to mint something on-chain. Click To Tweet.

A lot of people have had very traditional constructs of Web3 and NFTs where they're having to wrap their minds around this as you are. What has been the feedback from the beta community so far?

You can go to and see the things that people have created. It's amazing. People have gotten super creative.

What's an example there?

There's so much funny stuff. What are we seeing? There's a Daffy Duck, a Snoopy, and a Holoduck.

We have a joke about a Holoduck. There are several Holoducks. One of them happens to be Daffy Duck. There are a lot of sweet messages up there. A lot of people are celebrating Holo and Holochain. High on Love was a good one. There's a lot of great art. I don't even know how to describe it. People are doing all these interesting shapes, geometric shapes, and geometric art. They're collaborating. Either that or they're fighting to get their thing drawn while somebody else is drawing on top of them.

What's cool is when you go and see all the snapshots, they're snapshots in time of this thing that's evolved. It's continually evolving artwork and it completely changes. You will see 50 completely different artworks but at one point during the time of this game, that's how it looked.

This is exciting. It's an exciting time for Holochain. There's a lot to unpack with what you are doing. This is just one example but maybe you can give us a little bit of context on the near-term roadmap and why people should pay attention to what you are doing and take note. Our show prides itself on covering the very edge of emerging tech, and I've been enamored with what you are doing since I met you and learned more about it. I'm excited for people to understand what's going on here.

I can share things but it's almost too early to know how Holochain will be used. It's so basic of an infrastructure for building applications that anything people can think of can be built. Some things that we shared that you can find that are actively available are business applications and productivity applications. We've got versions of Kanban boards and creative and sticky games.

NFT 304 | Holochain
Holochain: It's almost too early to know how Holochain will be used. It's so basic of an infrastructure for building applications that anything people can think of can be built.

There's an app that you can find at Acorn.Software. It's a completely peer-to-peer project management dependency tree tool that can be used but people are looking at using it in much bigger kinds of projects. We have had people talking about putting it in decentralized energy sensors. We have had people who are working up in space talking to us about using it for communications from satellites.

One of your unique advantages is you don't necessarily have all the stigmas that are attached to Web3 due to unfortunate circumstances like legitimate fraud in the space at this point. Hopefully, we have one passage of time behind us with the verdict with SBF. From an enterprise perspective, you don't have necessarily the same stigmas.

Not having a native currency in Holochain changes everything for certain kinds of use cases.

I talked to a lot of folks about different uses for decentralization and different purposes. It sounds like for an enterprise, there are some meaningful considerations around what you can offer that don't run into the hacking issues and the challenges that Ethereum-based smart contracts create.

I'll let Josh answer that one.

I'm reflecting on some of the advantages of Holochain relative to smart contracts.

For one, you don't have to pay gas. You can build a whole different class of applications when you don't have to worry about everything you do costing the users money. That's probably the biggest thing. It's also not meant to be handling money. You can build a mutual credit currency if you want but that's not probably the main purpose of what you would use Holochain for. Therefore, you're not creating these financial honeypots where you're inviting people to come and attempt to hack. It's a different landscape. There are going to be security considerations but they're going to be very different from what we have seen in the smart contracts world.

I will add to that. The honeypot issue is important because every application is its separate network. You don't have any one place to go even on-chain. You would be hacking into an application that 50 people are using. Maybe ten people are using it. These things will vary. Maybe it is an application that a million people are using because you can't scale these up because they're installed on people's machines. You add people. You get more capacity in Holochain. That's one of the unique characteristics of it. You don't have the issue over time of the nodes and datasets getting larger. It's not quite like that. There are ways to upgrade even an application to do archiving and things like that.

Our other show is Edge of AI. A lot of my friends are building an AI. We're in San Francisco. There's a lot of AI happening here. When you think about the computing power required for AI, it requires a lot of scalability in computational power. It sounds like Holochain could offer that for AI applications.

From a distributed perspective, that's something that we're working to document and describe for folks in detail. We think that Holochain is an ideal potential solution for distributed model-making. If you think about it, the data issue is always the problem with AI. More and more, now that everybody knows how data models are created with all of the data that we have put out into the internet that we didn't realize was being used, the concern is going to be, "How do we keep that data more private?" One of the architectures that is being looked at is, "How do you use data to train models, share the learning, not the data, take those back, retest them, remix them, and then send them back to folks with data so that they can keep doing an aggregated test model?"

Holochain is an ideal potential solution for distributed model-making. Click To Tweet.

I appreciate all that. This has been fascinating and educational for me. To be fair, a lot of the building is still to come in framing up the future of the new internet, and there will be challenges along the way that will have to be resolved but you are doing something exciting. This is a fun conversation.


At this point, the formal part of the party is concluded. This is the second part of the interview. There will be some fun moments in the party that you probably have already seen on the show if you're on our YouTube channel, which I encourage you to subscribe to. Mary, how was the party?

It was fabulous. We got to meet with so many people. It was so relaxed and everybody was amazing. They were gracious and excited to be here. I'm happy that there was an event to connect with. There were a lot of interesting projects that we talked about and different folks that we're going to be following up with. It was good stuff. It's what you do a conference for. It's what you do an event for.

I met some great people and a lot of builders here in San Francisco. It's a little bit nerdier than the LA scene in a good way. I enjoyed that. Josh, how about you? Is it worth the trip?

I had a great time. I met loads are great people.

This is a fun part of the show we call Edge Quick Hitters. It's an opportune moment. Edge Quick Hitters is a fun and quick way to get to know you a little better. I'm going to ask you ten questions. We're going to be looking for a short, single-word, or few-word response but feel free to expand if you get the urge.

If I don't want to answer, can I give it to Josh?

You're each going to get a chance to go first. He will have the upper hand sometimes. You will have the upper hand sometimes. Since you're a pro at this, we're going to start with you. What is the first thing you remember ever purchasing in your life?

Donna Summer's 45.

That's music. Josh, what about you?

Hubba Bubba, the chewing gum. I stole coins from my parents, ran away to the shops, and bought chewing gum.

Next question, what is the first thing you remember ever selling in your life?

That's more difficult. If you mean selling as in real money, I have no clue.

It could be a barter.

When I was in grade school, I ran restaurants, sold food that was not real and did a damn good job of it.

You were in the virtual sales business at an early age. That's why we asked the question. How interesting? Did you think about that?

I didn't think about that.

You've been a digital native forever.

What about you?

I made a zine. I called it a newsletter when I was seven. One of the things in the zine was a basic programming language that you could type in.

He has always been a nerd.

How cool is that? That's great. Josh, you're the first this time. What is the most recent thing you purchased?

It was a Boulevardier, a Negroni with whiskey.

That's a good answer. Mary, you bought the open bar but beyond that, is there a recent purchase that comes to mind?

Everything I bought has been about this event. Is that what you're looking for?

If you want to share something else, that's fine.

I found a great San Francisco designer and bought a bunch of clothing on this trip. It was a lot of fun.

There are some cool boutiques here in San Francisco with food, clothing, and all the above. What is the most recent thing you sold, Josh?

Pass. I can't remember. It's my time.

I'm going to stick with personal. I sold a phone that I had purchased for my father that was not very good. I needed to buy him one that had a much better user interface, bigger screen, and better UI. We sold the other one.

I have the opposite problem. My mom is so loyal to her old iPhone and she doesn't want to upgrade. In the whole world out there, she's happy with the phone. There's a lot to get her comfortable with it. I get it. Here's the next question for you, Mary. What is your most prized possession?

It's interesting. Where I would have to look is having moved across the ocean, what do I take with me? The things that matter the most are my books and my art.

Is there a particular book or piece of art that comes to mind?

I have a piece that I bought in Denver at a gallery that is this gypsy woman. Everybody thinks it's me when they come into my house, and it's not me but it's the alter ego me.


I don't have an attachment to any of my possessions. My most useful possession is my laptop. I have known for a long time that it is the most important possession I have. I don't know if I prize it though.

What about your hoodie? You're pretty into your hoodie.

I do love this hoodie. Maybe that is my most prized possession. That might be true. You answered it for me. Thank you.

You're welcome. This show is about letting people know themselves more. Mary, if you could buy anything in the world, digital, physical, service, or experience that is currently for sale, what would it be?

It's an upgrade on my travel. I travel so much that it's hard to not want to be in a place where I can sleep.

It's enough points to always have the sleeper seat or a private jet.

I couldn't do that. I would feel too guilty.

I want to build a studio full of all of the old-school, vintage, or classic synths with loads of Moogs. That's my dream if I can afford it.

Josh, you're going to answer the next one first. If you could pass on one of your personality traits to the next generation, what would it be?


I've felt that in the five hours that we have known each other. That qualifies. What about you, Mary?

I love Josh's openness. I get shit done, and sometimes that's all that's needed. I'll stick with that.

Mary and I talked about what we would do when the conference didn't happen. There was an event. We host it and here we are enjoying the end of a very successful day. I get it. Mary, if you could eliminate one of your personality traits from the next generation, what would it be?

That one is so hard and good. It's probably that I don't give praise first.

To yourself, others, or both?

Others. It's eliminating that critique comes first. That's what I would eliminate.

It's a little bit more of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. There are good things on both sides of the sandwich and then the critique in the middle. Have you ever heard that analogy?

I've never heard that analogy but that's interesting. I'll think about that one.

What about you, Josh?

Let me answer. You're very nice. You should keep everything. Pass it all on. Josh is awesome.

Josh is going to pass on being nice to the world. Mary, what did you do before joining us on the show? This is a very literal situation.

I had lunch. I went to the office supply store to buy supplies for the event that we were at.

You threw a party, which everyone enjoyed. Josh, you were at the party. You built a game.

I built a game. Before this, I was drinking a spicy margarita.

There you go. The final question of this segment is this. I know you want this to keep going forever. What are you going to be doing next after the show?

There were a lot of people that I met. One of the things that I share quite easily is that I'm a little bit face blind. There's a follow-up routine to go through, making sure that I connect with people and remember people. It's a struggle.

Try throwing a conference for thousands of people. I get it. Face dysphoria is a real thing.

Something to do is some follow-up to ground everything great that's happened.


I'm going to go to Berlin for a few days and then go to Devconnect in Istanbul. I'm pretty excited to continue these vibes.

Are you going to be coding or relaxing?

Relaxing and eating some food.

This was fun. I enjoyed getting to know both of you better and having some time to learn about what you're both doing in the emerging tech space. We like to let folks know where they can go next to learn more about you and what you're up to. Josh, you can start first with your Twitter handle and the projects that you're working on.

On Twitter, I'm @HighOnHopium. I'm a recent member of Josh DAO. If your name is also Josh, then you can catch me on Josh DAO.

Josh is going to be building out the technical infrastructure for Josh DAO that we have been sorely needing for a long time.

We could do some KYC integration where you have to verify your identity first because you have to be a Josh.

In a way, that is enough information but we have talked about this on the show and this is the power of decentralization. When you give your ID at the bar, you're giving a little bit of extra information that you don't need to give to someone who shouldn't have it because it has your address on that. Maybe this relates to our earlier conversation in the show and Josh DAO. The power of technology is, "How do we let people verify they're a Josh with enough information but not too much and not expose that permanently?" That's the beauty of this technology.

I don't know if anyone has fully solved that yet but people are working on it.

We can solve it at Josh DAO.

We will start there. We will start with the Joshs and move out from there.

Mary, there's a lot going on with Holochain. Where should people go to start to dive down that rabbit hole?

If you're a developer, go to If you are looking to find out more about the project, there's, or you can always go to my LinkedIn. I'm @MaryFCamacho on LinkedIn and @MaryCamacho on Twitter, Telegram, and everywhere. I'm easy to find.

Thank you all. We have reached the outer edge of the show. Thanks for exploring with us. We've got space for more adventures on this starship, so invite your friends and recruit some cool strangers who will make this journey all so much better. How? Go to Spotify or iTunes, rate us, and say something awesome, and then go to to dive further down the rabbit hole. Look us up on all major social platforms by typing EdgeOfNFT and start a fun conversation with us online. Lastly, be sure to tune in next time for more great NFT content. Thanks again for sharing this time with us.

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