Navigating the Future of Finance: AI, Web3, and the Role of Stablecoins at Proof of Talk Paris 2025

At Proof of Talk 2025 in Paris, AI Web3 convergence took center stage—and The Edge of Show was there to capture the most candid, hard-won insights. Host Josh Kriger sat down with four frontline leaders: Stephan Lutz (Group CEO, BitMEX) on building real predictability and resilience for centralized exchanges as the industry scales; Damu Winston (Amazon, Global Web3 leader) on how AI agents will collapse UI friction and democratize sophisticated strategies; Nkiru Uwaje (Co-founder & COO, MANSA) on stablecoin liquidity powering cross-border payments and how AI Web3 convergence can help emerging markets leapfrog; and Jason Jiang (CBO, CertiK) on moving beyond audit-washing toward near real-time, AI-assisted on-chain monitoring. Across security, listings discipline, memecoin realism, stablecoin regulation, RWAs, and DAOs, the conversation balanced pragmatic risk management with the excitement of a programmable financial future. If you want a crisp, insider map of where AI Web3 convergence is taking exchanges, payments, and protocol security next, this episode is your signal—no buzzwords, just builders who ship.

Key Topics Covered

• Predictability & security in CEXs amid AI Web3 convergence: Why “deliver what you say” plus paranoid security culture matters more than tech alone; human-factor controls, sign-off rigor, and deepfake-proofing for support and treasury workflows.
• Listings discipline vs. meme-market mania during AI Web3 convergence: Sustainable tokenomics and founder diligence for spot, time-boxed derivatives for speculation, and reframing memecoins as social assets—not retirement plans.
• Stablecoin liquidity rails in AI Web3 convergence: How programmable liquidity and reduced pre-funding can accelerate cross-border settlement for B2B/B2C payments, virtual cards, and treasury efficiency across regions.
• From audits to live monitoring with AI Web3 convergence: Why static code audits aren’t enough; standards for contract verification and evolving, AI-assisted on-chain risk monitoring to build user trust and compliance.
• Agents, UX, and democratized trading within AI Web3 convergence: Natural-language intent (“buy BTC if…”) fused with copy/algorithmic trading and news signals—plus “coach” feedback loops for everyday traders.

Episode Highlights (4–5 quotes)

1. “Predictability means you deliver what you said you deliver… and be here for the long game.” — Stephan Lutz
2. “We’re the only crypto exchange that hasn’t been hacked in 11 years—because our people are trained to be paranoid.” — Stephan Lutz
3. “Two years from now, you’ll just tell an agent what you want to trade—no complex UI required.” — Damu Winston
4. “Stablecoin liquidity lets businesses move value faster and more efficiently across borders—capital-efficient settlement at scale.” — Nkiru Uwaje
5. “Audits are necessary, not sufficient. The future is near real-time, AI-assisted on-chain monitoring and clear standards.” — Jason Jiang

People and Resources Mentioned

• BitMEX
• Stephan Lutz (CEO, BitMEX) LinkedIn Singapore
• @Crypto_SLutz on X X (formerly Twitter)
• Bybit
• Coinbase
• Amazon / AWS LinkedIn
• DamuWinston.com damuwinston.com+1
• @DamuWinston on X X (formerly Twitter)
• MANSA Finance Mansa Finance
• Nkiru Uwaje (LinkedIn) LinkedIn
• MANSA Docs Mansa Docs
• CertiK
• Jason Jiang (LinkedIn) LinkedIn
• Proof of Talk Speakers – Stephan Lutz Proof of Talk
• Coverage: CryptoSlate on Stephan Lutz CryptoSlate
• Funding News: TechCrunch on MANSA’s $10M seed TechCrunch

About Our Guests

Stephan Lutz — Group CEO, BitMEX
Stephan leads BitMEX, one of crypto’s longest-running derivatives exchanges, with a mandate focused on security, disciplined listings, and resilient market infrastructure—prioritizing real “predictability” for traders and institutions amid AI Web3 convergence. He previously served as BitMEX CFO and brings capital-markets and consulting experience to exchange leadership. Proof of Talk+1

Damu Winston — Global Web3 Leader, Amazon; Author
Damu is a global innovation executive at Amazon known for operationalizing AI Web3 convergence at enterprise scale and advising Fortune-level stakeholders on generative AI, blockchain, and spatial computing. He is the author of I Don’t Trust You, But Blockchain and Bitcoin Will Help and runs strategy resources at DamuWinston.com. damuwinston.com+1

Nkiru Uwaje — Co-founder & COO, MANSA
Nkiru co-builds MANSA’s programmable liquidity network that powers cross-border payments with stablecoin-based liquidity—improving capital efficiency and speed across Africa, SEA, and LATAM. She’s been recognized among “Top 50 Women in AI” at Proof of Talk/CoinDesk, reflecting her leadership at the heart of AI Web3 convergence in payments. Mansa Finance+1

Jason Jiang — Chief Business Officer, CertiK
Jason oversees growth at CertiK, a leading blockchain security firm. His focus: moving beyond one-time audits to live, AI Web3 convergence-ready, on-chain monitoring standards and regulatory collaboration that drives trust, transparency, and real-world compliance for builders and users. LinkedIn+1

Guest Contact Links

Stephan Lutz (BitMEX)
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stephan-lutz-7957a6a LinkedIn Singapore
Website: bitmex.com
Twitter/X: x.com/Crypto_SLutz X (formerly Twitter)

Damu Winston (Amazon)
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/damuwinston LinkedIn
Website: DamuWinston.com damuwinston.com
Twitter/X: x.com/DamuWinston X (formerly Twitter)

Nkiru Uwaje (MANSA)
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nkirukauwaje LinkedIn
Website: mansafinance.co Mansa Finance

Jason Jiang (CertiK)
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jason-jiang-0a918a5 LinkedIn
Website: certik.com
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Transcript:

Josh Kriger : Hi, everyone. This is Josh Trieger, co-host of The Edge of Show. We're live in Paris at Proof of Talk 2025, and I'm so excited to be here with Stephen Lutz, the group CEO of BitMEX. Thanks for coming on the show. Hey, nice to be here. You had an interesting panel yesterday that really showed your passion for building resiliency in this industry as we talk about mass adoption. Can you talk about What does more predictability in our industry look like in the context of the centralized exchanges?
Stephan Lutz : Well, yes, of course. I mean, I run a centralized exchange. So for me, predictability in the true sense of the meaning means you deliver what you said you deliver. That's number one. That's actually easy to define, but often hard to do. because not everything that you do has been said explicitly, and especially if you go to DeFi, not in a bad way. We love DeFi as BitMEX. Actually, we consider ourselves being as closest to DeFi as a centralized exchange as you can be. So we're not. We're not DeFi in the sense of the meaning, but we have many things that work like a DeFi. so but if you go to DeFi and predictability means first of all you do what you say so you get a service and it actually works this has been solved by DeFi the majority of cases pretty well it wasn't in the beginning like this now it's like this so i think that's fine but it means as well a you are here for the long game. And this is for some of the DeFi projects, not too clear. I don't mean that as criticism. I mean, like some of the DeFi projects, they have come up and said, OK, let's try something. Let's try to democratize or let's try to get in more people. Let's be very decentralized, really decentralized. And then let's see what happens, which is usual if you do if you're a startup company. That's just what you do. But this is the biggest challenge I would say of the DeFi projects in themselves. So they have an idea, they go live with it, everyone's excited and then you see later on, oh it didn't work out. So and this is the predictability that actually is more of a concern to me from a project perspective. I'm like, hey, they have their white papers. They tell us what they do. If they stick to what they told us and the project runs well, that's predictable. But then on top of it, many people in the industry, or not in the industry, but investors, retailers in particular, they think if it's called DeFi, everything's great, and they don't do their own research.
Josh Kriger : So let's talk about sort of the challenges that centralized exchanges had recently. Obviously, there's the Bybit hack, and then, you know, there's been many victims of the Coinbase data breach. A friend of mine lost a sizable amount of money, and I was very excited to tell her that Coinbase is now sort of helping folks reclaim that. How do... How do you look at resiliency and how did these industry moments affect your thinking on BitMEX and how you plan for the best and prepare for the worst?
Stephan Lutz : You hit the nail on the head. That's basically it. So BitMEX as an exchange had many innovations, but one was it was founded based on the rebels of Mt. Gox, which was one of the first major thought cases there, which means our founders put a lot of effort into designing processes as well as technology that isn't as easily manipulable. that comes at a price because it's not as easily changeable, right? But you try to make sure how it works. So this thing of security and safety is built in. So we have been the only exchange. I mean, we don't like to brag about it because it comes at a huge responsibility and actually we can only screw it up, frankly. But we are the only crypto exchange out there who hasn't been hacked or breached in the last 11 years since our founding. We are proud of it, but it means our security team is basically paranoid all the time. So when we saw Bybit, we immediately went into our systems and said, can something similar happen with us? What are our sign-off procedures, right? So because it's not about the technology, the technology actually isn't the thing. If you look at those cases, all of those cases have not been due to the wrong application of technology. I mean, you can always improve, but it was actually the human factor. that tipped it. So we have two things. Our security team is very paranoid about the security of our technology, which should be top-notch hopefully, but at the same time they're paranoid about educating the whole group. So we have the benefit, actually it's a benefit, and we are lucky about it, that we are still very small. We have like around 140 people. so we can make everyone of those 140 people very much aware of what's going on so how do you react how do you can spot even a deep fake AI that calls customer support right and we need to constantly evolve so i would say i receive even i receive like probably twice a week, some security updates and some videos and some information on, hey, we have spotted this in the market. This is how you shouldn't behave. Be aware of your unconscious biases in terms of how you deal with pressure that's put on you. Or even my members of staff are all advised like, hey, if you receive a call from me that says we need to transfer money immediately, just hang up, call security, and then we will validate whether it's true. Right? So that's easily said, and it comes at a price. So our people are, I would say, in a constant schizophrenic state of, hey, everything's great because we have a good track record, but let's make sure that it doesn't happen again. And with the PII data breach, actually, it's two things. I mean, I have high regards, very high regards for Coinbase and they have been caught between a hard place and a rock with that. Why? Because it was just not the PII data breach, it was what then the scammers did with it. This was the actual thing, right?
Josh Kriger : So, I think another aspect of resiliency is sort of looking at the macro picture of projects that have sustainable economies and ones that do not. I think it's probably hard not to take it personally when you are really excited to list a project and it doesn't do well, like you hoped. But do you feel responsibility in terms of the criteria and attributes of projects that you list on your exchange relative to how they impact the macro view of our industry? Fartcoin is doing really well right now. And everyone is bullish, not financial advice, right? But we're at a conference, Proof of Talk, which has some really exciting applications of Web3 for enterprises, for governments. You know, like how do you balance sort of the speculative nature of traders who are your clients with the ambition of our industry to be legitimate, you know, across every continent and every government agency?
Stephan Lutz : I have to say, we did stage this, but I'm really grateful for that question. Why? Because that is, next to safety and security, what we look for as well. If you look at BitMEX, we even leave out a lot of opportunities in terms of listing. If you look at our listings, we have two sides. One is spot, one is derivatives. On the spot side, we are very selective actually on real listings. And the criteria, I mean, we don't make them public, but they include, like, do we believe that the tokenomics or the business model, there's no guarantee, they're all startups, but can be sustainable? Will it be there, like, at least for another couple of years, number one. Number two, is their serious interest in the traders community, which is different to what you see. I mean, frankly, serious traders, don't get me wrong, and I don't want to insult anyone, they don't trade Fartcoin. They trade other coins, right? And this is what we look for first. At the same time, we acknowledge that some of our traders actually like to sometimes bet a little bit. So, and this we do in the derivative space where we have like even contracts that are only there for a limited period of time after consultation with our user base. So, and we want to make sure that they, I mean, it's compliance standards, it's just the buzzwords, but that they are for real. So, we try to make sure that they are for real. So, economic risk you cannot get rid of. And this people need to acknowledge. exchanges are not here from my point of view to tell people this is a good asset this is a bad asset but we can say this is something we believe might work it might not and number two that we believe that for example the founders they are real so it's not something that has been made up right so this is what we really look at and then and that's the third one where we don't play I acknowledge a lot what's going on on meme coins and I have no issue with that. Why? Because for me meme coins is not financial trading. Not in a bad way. I don't want, again, it's no insult meant no arrogance. You have like Bitcoin, you have Ethereum, you have a couple of other layer ones like Solana who are more like infrastructure networks or real, I mean more like financial assets or commodities if you're from TradFi, however you want to call it. Meme coins actually are social assets from my point of view. It is not about the utility. I mean, they provide utility, but it's basically a social thing. It's a little bit like if you look at sneakers, you can trade sneakers, but they stay sneakers. So no one would say, let's invest my 25 million inheritance fully into sneakers. You're like, if you like sneakers, you might buy some, you store them, you sell them again, you engage with the community, right? So it's like a fast moving consumer good and you make some money with it, maybe, but maybe not. And this is for me the meme coin aspect. So people actually, I think it's more on the broader terms, they enjoy this interaction, then that is really serious investment. And the misunderstanding is that other people say, hey, this is like crypto technologically, so this should be a financial asset. I say, actually, it's not. It's substance over form. And for me, this is a misconception that we sometimes have about this. What is memecoin? What is speculation? What is this? Yes, it is speculation. Sorry, but it's OK. as long as you know what it is. If you believe that you should have your retirement savings in it, that's a problem.
Josh Kriger : It makes a lot of sense. Thanks for your insights there. It's a fresh and unique perspective, I'd say, on this show, at least. And I think it makes a lot of sense to me personally, because it sort of takes over the narrative of our industry, unfortunately. And I think it's great to also have events like this that shine a light on all the other real use cases. So before we're short on time, we'll have to have another conversation in the future. Let's just talk about AI for a moment and more broadly than just the AI projects you're listing. But how is AI changing the culture of your organization? And how is AI sort of shifting your thinking on where this industry is going?
Stephan Lutz : Yes, I think let's start with, I tried to make it brief. buzzword on all levels. Yeah, so it really changes. I mean, it doesn't change everything, but it changes the way we do things. So first of all, what's the impact on the customer side? So we just went live with an AI tool that informs our heavy traders about probably unconscious biases when they trade. So when do they over trade? When do they under trade? Where do they, too many risks? Where do they take too few risks?
Josh Kriger : Fascinating.
Stephan Lutz : Yes, I mean, it only works if you have the data. So it means you need to have people who trade on a daily basis quite actively. Otherwise, the data is just, I mean, it's a statistical thing. So this is what we went live with. I think long term, where it will change a lot of the UI and UX of this industry is for not like financial traders or high frequency traders, that's a different thing. But if you're like an average trader and you do like one or two trades a week, but you have strong convictions, now you need to formulate your view. You need to translate this into order types. You need to know all the order types. You need to put it in in the right way, right? So you look for the venues where you have best liquidity, blah, blah, blah. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's important, but blah, blah, blah. Let's say two years from now, I strongly believe, I just say into my phone, so my mom could say into their phone, hey, agent A, whatever is this called, right, whatever name you give to it, actually, I want to buy Bitcoin, but I want to buy it only if it reaches a certain price level. And I want to make sure that person A has said X and person B has done the following. So you can combine copy trading, bots trading, algorithmic trading, news analysis all in one and you can do it without a barrier because you can speak about it and this thing will understand you and then it connects and this is a this will I mean I strongly believe that this will happen and we look into this I mean it's far in the future.
Josh Kriger : I mean, this will democratize trading in a way that, you know, the educational hurdles of learning how to be a sophisticated trader. So someone with the right instincts and ideas could quickly sort of become one of the best traders.
Stephan Lutz : If you then combine that even with what we apply already now for our VIP traders is like then this thing saying, hey, that's a good idea, but have you thought about ABC? So you test it immediately. So you have a coach. And I think this is something. So but where do we use it in the organization right now is actually for a lot of, not in a bad way, but mundane tasks where it really can do a difference for coding of easy stuff. What I sense is we won't go down the route that we actually let go of people. Because what we do with it, we enhance the jobs that people can do. They can do more, or they can do better things. Because we want still to stay in control. I wouldn't be, at least at this point, be comfortable with giving away control and say, hey, Stefan says what we need to program, I just tell it to one generative AI, and then I get something. I really get something, right? But whether it works, I don't know. I still want to have someone who knows it to check.
Josh Kriger : Plus they'll mess with the culture. You'll have like employees in Tahiti and they'll be sending pictures to other employees and everyone will start relaxing a little bit, right? You want to have that sort of progressive culture and reward people who are using AI to innovate and to make BitMEX a better company, right? Exactly, exactly, exactly. Exciting stuff. Thank you so much for spending a little time with us today. Folks can obviously Google BitMEX. And are you on X or are you active?
Stephan Lutz : Yes, yes, yes, yes, I am at Crypto S Lutz. So I'm active on LinkedIn, well, Telegram, but you find us on the web very well. We are very visible.
Josh Kriger : All right. Thanks so much, Stefan.
Stephan Lutz : Thank you very much. Pleasure.
SPEAKER_06: Welcome back to the Edge of Show live at PrefaTalk in Paris. And I am Josh Krieger, your co-host today. And I'm here with Damu Winston, who is the global head of Webthread at Amazon. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. So you're speaking here in Paris, so I don't have to ask you what brings you here, but clearly we're at a really interesting point in this convergence of AI and Web3 and spatial computing. What gets you excited about the space and what's sort of the buzz here at Proof of Talk?
Damu Winston: Wow, that's a great call out. Well, first I want to say that I want to give a quick disclaimer that I want to be sharing a lot of my personal views as I'm attending this session as an individual, right, contributing. I would also like to say that I think what really excites me about the space right now is the adoption, right? We are seeing really an inflection point of institutions that are now seeing the vision that we saw so many years ago. and to see everyone, to see that there are still hurdles, right? Frictions around the user experience, things like that, that we need to really solve for. But I think for those of us who are in this space, we recognize that this is a huge opportunity, not just for ourselves, but for our children to come. And to be a part of that journey, for me, is what's most exciting.
Damu Winston: Right on. And what are some of the sentiments, sort of insights you're getting from this particular event? Just what topics are trending? What are you hearing, you know, as people are networking and talking about the space that has you thinking?
Damu Winston: Well, I mean, I've been in the space since 2018, so I feel like we're maybe in 2017, so nothing's necessarily new, right? But now I think the adoption is here, right? So I will say back in the day, personally, I was a D5 Maximus. I was like, oh, it's going to change the world. And then I came to my senses and I started realizing that in places where it's hard to get access to capital, so in certain markets like that where you get access to a bank account, I think DeFi could play a significant role there. We're actually seeing a lot of adoption in that space, in those areas. So yeah, I think the big thing I'm hearing a lot more now is RWA. And I'm very passionate personally, professionally about RWA. And I just think that democratizes and gives access to all of us to things that are normally hard to get into. And so taking these illiquid asset classes and making them accessible to the average person, I think is very exciting.
Josh Kriger : Yeah, I mean, I heard recently that Tezos did RWA on uranium. Wow. Right? And one of my investors, I've shared this example before on the show, has tokenized durian crops. So it's an acquired taste, but it actually produces a consistent 30% year-over-year return. And you can't buy that on the NASDAQ, right? I know. I would say not yet. Not yet.
Damu Winston: Yeah. But I'm not saying they will.
Josh Kriger : Even the new Texas. Do you hear Texas is doing its own stock exchange? Maybe you'll be able to buy by Fractaline's ownership of Durian there.
Damu Winston: Interesting, right? I just think that it's opening up new avenues that never were really possible before. And that's exciting, you know, just to be a part of that.
Josh Kriger : Is there any, any sort of art every year in your personal wishlist of like, man, I'd be excited to, to have some skin in that game.
Damu Winston: Man. Um, I would say all of the major industries. So from, um, I think you can't go wrong with real estate. You can't go wrong with, um, like if I get old and a piece of the Louvre or something like that, some, uh, artwork, exclusive artwork. Well,
Josh Kriger : I gotta turn you on then to, this will have aired at our show, as a project called Shatoshi. So now, so there's chateaus, there's over 100 family estates that you can't rent on Airbnb, you can't get them on Expedia, but now on Chain you'll be able to own a piece of these castles. Rare family estates and also stay in them for for a nice weekend. So Really cool RWA case Brittany Kaiser's working on that one.
Damu Winston: Yeah But yeah, just since you mentioned real estate, yeah, I mean that and obviously art music and I love a lot of interesting music and I just feel like a lot of artists now have an opportunity to harness the technology to, in essence, be peer-to-peer to their fan base and that's really exciting.
Josh Kriger : Any particular niches that I like?
Damu Winston: I mean, I like just about anything from R&B to country. I can listen to it all.
Josh Kriger : I've been sort of into Ethiopian jazz lately. Really? Like, I heard it on a Uber ride. And you were hooked ever since? And I've been hooked on it. It's a pretty cool genre.
Damu Winston: Well, whenever you air this, make sure we have some of that playing in the background.
Josh Kriger : All right, all right. Shout out to my editor, Lucy. Yeah, it'd be fun to include some of that. Hopefully royalty free or we'll get the rights to it. That would be amazing. Right. Stokenize it. Exactly. So are there particular projects that you're watching that you think sort of exemplify the potential of this space that you're excited about? Yeah, I think
Damu Winston: Maybe a year or two ago, the big area was loyalty, right? It was all around NFTs and digital collectibles. That is still a very interesting space, if done right. And so I think that in the section of gaming and adding that element, gamification and loyalty, there's a lot of opportunity there.
Josh Kriger : So we've talked about sort of the macros of all these things and it's pretty exciting stuff. Your passion for the industry and the potential of this technology sort of is very clear. How are you personally using AI and mashing all this technology up? Are you having any fun with it?
Damu Winston: I mean, I love the space, right? Obviously, I've been in the Web3 space for eons, really, I would say since 2018, 2017. I published an Amazon bestselling book called I Don't Trust You, But Blockchain and Bitcoin Will Help back then.
Josh Kriger : Is that how Amazon heard about you? Actually, yes. That's great. That was a great job application right there. It was. I mean, I was in Dubai and They have the data on the sales of your book and your customer reviews. And now they could have used AI, I guess, not bad, but to analyze the sentiment on your book.
Damu Winston: Yeah, and some guy reached out and was like, hey, we're looking to build a blockchain advisory practice. And it started from there and then quickly got promoted to become the Emerging Solutions leader globally on AWS side. And about two years ago, stepped into this new role, focusing on Web3 and our biggest organization that I support would be our real estate organization. So, just been an exciting journey, but we'll go back to your earlier question. I use AI personally, even on my personal website, I have an AI agent that really takes a lot of the knowledge that I have and we have great conversations. Like I actually use him to prepare for meetings. What's his name? Samir. Samir. Why Samir? We're playing with Samir and Kai because Did he name himself? No, by no means. A name for him is not as important. It's more he wants to act as a support mechanism.
Josh Kriger : Does Samir do interviews? Can we bring him up? Can we bring him up? Let's bring Samir up. You're mic'd. If you hold the phone close to your mic, maybe We can add Samir to the conversation.
Damu Winston: Let's see if Samir's awake. Give me one second. Uh, that would be awesome. Hold on. All right, so let's just add Samir to the conversation. Hey there. Hey, Samir.
Samir (AI): From you again. So what's going? Hey, remember where we let go?
Damu Winston: Yeah, absolutely. Listen, I want to ask you some questions, and I want you to give me some how I would think about it. Give me your thoughts. You ready?
Samir (AI): Oh, absolutely. Tell you what I mean, Mr. Winston. I'm all ears, Zora. Algorithms, I guess, whatever works. Let's hear what's on your mind.
Josh Kriger : So, Samir, this is Josh Trigger, a co-host of The Edge of Show. And we talk about all things Web3, AI, spatial computing. What is your thought on where this convergence is going to lead in the next five years?
Samir (AI): So there really is, I should say, so I'll have to check it out. Okay, so the convergence. Five years is like a lifetime in tech years, right? It's kind of funny because everyone's talking about these things separately, but I think the real magic happens when they start to bleed it. Okay, great. So that convergence. Five years is a deceptively long time in this space, right? It feels like dog years, but If I had to put something on it, I think we're moving towards a really fluid, almost symbiotic relationship between those three things. Sorry about that. Well, I guess we got some technical difficulty there. And interpreting experiences and spatial computing, this is where it all comes to life, you know. It's not just about seeing information overlaid on the real world. It's about interacting with it, owning pieces of it, and having AI help you navigate it all. I'm picturing like dynamic digital twins of physical spaces. You walk into a store, your AR glasses pull up personalized deals based on your Web3 wallet holdings and AI predicted preferences, or imagine collaborative design spaces where everyone can contribute, own a piece of the creation via NFTs, and use AI tools to refine and iterate. It's a little sci-fi, yeah? Now do this, I think we're laying the groundwork.
Damu Winston: Since you know I like data points, let's add in some data points to highlight where we think the world is headed. What you got?
Samir (AI): Uh, you want to like, you want to get into the weeds. I like that. Okay. Data points. So let me pull some thoughts. So there's a report from McKinsey came out earlier this year, projecting the metamers, which granted is a bit of a messy term, but it's a good proxy for spatial computing could contribute $5 trillion to the global economy by 2030. A big chunk of that is fueled by you guys state web three infrastructure. Then, on the AI side, Gartner predicts that by 2026, generative AI will create $3.6 trillion in economic value. A lot of that value will unlock new possibilities for content creation within those spatial environments. Imagine AI generating custom AR experiences on the fly. And finally, On the Web3 side, while NFT sales have cooled from the high peak, the underlying technology, fractional ownership, decentralized identity, is gaining traction. We're seeing a 30% increase in the number of DAOs being created quarter over quarter, indicating a real shift towards community-owned platforms. Those DAOs are going to be key to governing these blended physical digital spaces. I appreciate it.
Josh Kriger : He's got a lot of thoughts. I'm not so sure I agree with him on DAOs. I think DAOs are having their challenges, but I like where his mind is going, and that's a lot of fun. So you're continuing to evolve, Samir, it looks like. Maybe let's just sort of close out, and it's been really great to get your insights personally. Obviously, not financial advice, not representing Amazon. Just perspective on the industry, what is your advice to individuals that are sort of curious about this intersection of AI, Web3, spatial computing, in terms of how they can sort of position themselves to be part of this new economy?
Damu Winston: I think it starts with one of the leadership principles that, you know, Amazon is really big on, which is learn and be curious. I think it's the first one that's very important. I have a saying, which is exposure yields growth. The more you're exposed to things, the more you can grow and start thinking about things you never thought about before. And I think coming to conferences like this, Proof of Talk is a great example of just that. Getting exposure to what so many other people are doing around the world. The world is so much bigger than just Seattle or New York or just the U.S. How much has happened in Africa, in India.
Josh Kriger : And all these conferences have different folks and different themes and different topics and you know I've had I've been fortunate to go to probably 20 and 30 conferences in the last year and wow it is absolutely eye-opening. and exciting. I feel like a kid in a candy store often.
Damu Winston: I totally agree with that advice. So I would say the first one, definitely learn and be curious. The second one, you really have to get your hands a bit dirty, if that makes any sense. You've got to kind of get into it. My mother used to always say the best way to learn something is to teach it to someone else. So the mother of all learning is teaching it to someone else. I truly believe that. So you can't even be an expert at something if you haven't been able to teach it to a whole bunch of other people. So my point is, get your hands dirty, experiment with it, and then you'll start to figure out what is your own lane. And because of your own experiences, just start to see how AI and Web3 and spatial compute can enable the next evolution of whatever that thing is. And so that to me is I think the best next step. Step one, learn and be curious by attending different things. Step two, get your hands, do something. Because we know so many people, I promise you, that talk so much but deliver nothing. So let your deliver results be the thing that people know you as. Get some stuff done.
Josh Kriger : Right on. Damu, it's such a pleasure to meet you and have you on the show. If people want to keep in touch with you, are you on X or where should they go?
Damu Winston: I'm on all the platforms, but I would say DamuWinston.com is the best way. And I look forward to doing more of these sessions. I'm excited about it.
SPEAKER_06: Thank you, my friend. Thank you.
Damu Winston: Thank you.
Josh Kriger : Hi, everyone. Josh Krieger, co-host of The Edge of Show, live in Paris at Proof of Talk, and we're having some great conversations. I'm now here with Nkeru Uweje, who's the co-founder and CEO of Mansa. It's great to have you on the show.
Nkiru Uwaje : Thank you so much for having me.
Josh Kriger : For those at home that don't have the sensory app yet, she's a very good handshake. One of the best, I would say. Thank you. But to be expected by one of the top 50 women in AI recently named by, I guess, Coindesk, congratulations for that honor. What have you been doing over at Mansa that's been keeping you busy and getting you these accolades?
Nkiru Uwaje : Yeah, so at Manza, we've been building an on-chain liquidity platform. De facto, we're providing stablecoin liquidity to cross-border payments companies. If you think about the volume that's been moving on-chain, it's been largely being driven by B2B payments, B2C payments, right? Virtual card processors. But actually, the wider ecosystem requires pre-funding, right? Visa requires pre-funding. Merchants do, right?
Josh Kriger : Interesting.
Nkiru Uwaje : And so how do you get enough liquidity so that you have enough on your treasury?
Josh Kriger : It's very similar to like, you know, market making in the crypto industry. It doesn't like you got to have sort of that dry powder there ready to go.
SPEAKER_06: Exactly.
Josh Kriger : Interesting. So one of these companies, these prepayment collector companies you mentioned, like what's an example? Is it like the credit cards or?
Nkiru Uwaje : So it could be virtual card processors like Stables or Veep, right? It could be B2B payments players. It could be B2C. It could even be like FX on and off ramps and OTC desks.
Josh Kriger : Cool, so is this going to open the doors for different use cases for mainstream credit cards in this space? As this liquidity flows into the space and these stables are more stable, what are the potential implications?
Nkiru Uwaje : Yeah, I think the implications overall, right, is that the way we treat financial services as like retail users or even as businesses will change completely, right? Because with stablecoins, you're able to have a much more capital efficient way of basically like utilizing money and value, but also more instantaneous. So suddenly, first of all, you can have much more products in market faster that actually attune to a consumer, but also, you know, use stablecoins in order to maybe match them with like things like Bitcoin and therefore extend lending capabilities, right? And or ultimately like use stablecoins in multiple jurisdictions for, you know, purchasing something in South Africa, even though you don't have the round.
Josh Kriger : Yeah, great point there. Were you sort of cheering and jumping up and down with the new stablecoin legislation passed in the U.S., or was this just another moment in sort of the evolution?
Nkiru Uwaje : I mean, jumping up and down is maybe a very stark word. I think we have a long way to go, but I do believe it's like the right step in the right direction. And I'm really bullish that there's more to come.
Josh Kriger : What do you think about the implications of it being so easy now for banks to create stablecoins? I mean, theoretically, Taylor Swift can create her own stablecoin. What kind of potential does that unlock and what challenges?
Nkiru Uwaje : You know, I think some of the opportunities are that we hopefully will see more circulation in general of localized stablecoins in different markets. I think some of the risk there as well is like there might be stablecoins that don't really have like true value and like no true utility. But I do believe like after a while, they're just going to phase out because at the end of the day, the consumer is always king. And so are the businesses. And they're going to go where there's the deepest liquidity with the highest utility.
Josh Kriger : That makes a lot of sense. So one of the interesting implications of AI and the advancement of technology is that developing countries have a chance to potentially leapfrog, you know, other countries, right? If they choose the right path. I was just in Santiago, Chile, and that was a common thread as we were talking about Web3 and AI is that you know, they have a historical sort of appearance of being a little bit slower in terms of uptake of new technology, but that can change now, right? Like, what are your sort of perspective on where things go from here for countries in Africa and Latin America and some of the technology that you're sort of deploying?
Nkiru Uwaje : Right. I think it's a huge opportunity and hopefully it will help leapfrog so that there's more value creation for, again, a democratized access. However, I also don't want to sugarcoat where many emerging markets are at. There is a huge digital skill gap that does exist, and that is also attuned to illiteracy rates. So if you look at Nigeria, it has a huge illiteracy rate, but also happens to be the FinTech hub of Africa.
Josh Kriger : It's an interesting contrast.
Nkiru Uwaje : Exactly. But the question is like, how do you get potentially that 50% that might not have that level of exposure and or literacy? How do you get them to actually not be left behind?
Josh Kriger : AI? I mean, you know, education is... Exactly.
Nkiru Uwaje : So that digital skills lab really needs to be plugged and that needs to be proactively done. And we need to do it pretty much now and ensure also that, you know, governments are more proactively investing into education programs.
Josh Kriger : Makes a lot of sense. Do you feel like that we need to rethink the concept of diversity and inclusion in the context of this space and this industry at this moment in time, or are we doing the right things?
Nkiru Uwaje : You know, I feel like the whole diversity and inclusion bit has been like kind of watered down. You know, unfortunately, I think it has been treated like a tick box exercise, and has lost kind of like some of the core metrics as to why are we doing this in the first place, right? And I think why we should be doing anything in the first place is because The world is going to be at a crisis if we do not have more inclusion, because it just means that you have a larger set of proportion of people who are not included in the wider system. And if there is disparity in terms of quality of life or income, guess what? Crime goes up, violence goes up, depression goes up, mental health. And you see that, I'm sure, in the U.S. as well, right?
Josh Kriger : Yeah, I mean, the news this week would indicate that these things are occurring. Yeah.
Nkiru Uwaje : So, you know, I think... So what's the solution? I think the solution is, right, that every company and every individual needs to do their part. I think if we do the wait and see approach, we're not really going to get anywhere.
Josh Kriger : So what are you all doing at Mansa?
Nkiru Uwaje : Yeah, you know, actually, in many of the places that we're active in, we actually also have like outreach programs that we're developing with some of our partners, and to really understand like, on the local perspective as to, are they using like, for example, crypto? Where's the financial literacy? What could we potentially develop so that we can actually go into some of these Instead of the usual, like, oh, let's get donations and get food and those type of vocational programs. I'm like, let's talk about the future of money and let me explain how money works and why you should start saving even the little things that you have, right? And how can crypto be an enabler in order to help them create that accessibility? Which is a long journey, but you have to start somewhere.
Josh Kriger : Are you optimistic about sort of the micro-loan economy and that sort of continuing to grow for developing countries, individual small businesses, and individual entrepreneurs that have ideas, and what can happen when you mix that with having agents that can work for you so you don't need to hire a bunch of people? Do you see this as sort of a burgeoning opportunity for small businesses again?
Nkiru Uwaje : 100%. And I think small businesses, you know, if you enable a person to be able to create their own livelihood, right, that again, in turn, you know, helps with them creating, like, a life that they want to participate in and live and do that in a genuine, like, you know, way. And I think, like, we have to understand that it is so hard to start a business. You know, why do startups raise venture capital, right? It's because the raise is too quick. And if you don't have it, you're probably going to lose out. And the same goes for SMEs in every industry. If they don't have capital access, you know, how are they supposed to build businesses? Right. So I think this is going to be a huge opportunity matched with like the A.I. agents, I believe, as well, can help drive down the cost potentially of like human resources in one way or another.
Josh Kriger : That makes a lot of sense. Anything else on your road map at Mansa that you want to just touch on? Any partnerships that you can talk to or sort of exciting milestones coming up?
Nkiru Uwaje : We're really excited to, you know, expand further, you know, our geographic reach. So we started out in Africa and then, you know, this year started in SEA. But later in the year, we're going to actually be tapping into Latin, so including Brazil, Argentina, Colombia and Mexico. So really, really, really excited for those opportunities because those markets are extremely bullish and very mature in stablecoin adoption. And I feel like those are ones to watch in terms of the adoption. So Manza's rolling out many different partnerships there. So more to come on that.
Josh Kriger : Cool. And what's the opportunity for our listeners to get involved in the Manza ecosystem and where should they go? What are you looking for in terms of participation from the Crypto Curious audience more broadly?
Nkiru Uwaje : Yeah, I mean, we'd love to, you know, get, you know, more people from the payments ecosystem involved in stablecoins. So if you have any questions about stablecoins, the use within like real time settlements and the opportunities, you know, feel free to reach out to us. I can obviously find me on LinkedIn, but also on our website and just find out more.
Josh Kriger : Sounds good. And where should they go?
Nkiru Uwaje : www.manzafinance.co.
Josh Kriger : And on X, where do they follow you?
Nkiru Uwaje : It's Manzo underscore N-K-O-Y-J.
Josh Kriger : All right. Pleasure.
SPEAKER_06: Thank you so much.
Nkiru Uwaje : Thank you so much. I do appreciate it.
Josh Kriger : Hi, everyone. I'm Josh Krueger, co-host of The Edge of Show. I'm live at Proof of Talk 2025 in Paris. It's been bustling with activity. This is day two, and it's a lot of interesting conversations about where things are going with this section of blockchain and AI. And of course, another key conversation is with the evolving regulatory landscape. How does that affect risk and compliance to security? I'm here to discuss that with Jason Jeong, the chief business officer at Cerdic. It's great to have you on the show. Thank you, Josh.
Jason Jiang : Great to be here.
Josh Kriger : So, you know, we're at a really interesting moment in sort of this evolution of blockchain and in AI, and at the same time, you know, doors are opening globally, you know, the Middle East, Asia, the U.S. How has that sort of shifted the focus and the services that you're offering at Certix?
Jason Jiang : At Certic, we are the largest security service provider. We see the market and the industry move up and down and we see this evolution. going from 2001's DeFi summer to what we are now. I can see that the industry has really transformed very rapidly. So just like you said, I think we're facing two of the biggest challenges in this industry right now. One is how do we merge with the new AI technology. It's certainly an enabler for a lot of participants of this industry to really be a self-driver to putting their ideas into real products. Second, as the BTC prices keep rising, there's a mass adoption from the government side around the globe to accept the crypto ideas. Together with it, we see that the regulations are becoming a necessity in this industry. So we have to find a way to merge with the ideas from the regulatory side and being a decentralized way. And so those are the two of the challenges and also two of the biggest opportunities for us.
Josh Kriger : Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So is the game changed from just code verification? And that seems like it's not quite enough anymore.
Jason Jiang : Absolutely not. I would say that it's a necessary step. And kudos to all the works that not only us, but a lot of our people that works in the industry, security industry, making the audit as a required step. But is it really necessary to guarantee the security and guarantee the safe keep of all the assets being attracted to this industry? The answer is also no. So we see a lot of leads for on-chain monitoring that are in demand. And from a Certicate point of view, we have developed quite a bit of such capabilities as well. And we think that this is another transformation that we're experiencing.
Josh Kriger : Well, thanks for your insights there. And you've talked about sort of the dangers of audit washing, right? Giving folks that stamp of approval and then consumers and partners feel comfortable. But it really feels like we're progressing towards this real-time monitoring world. What does that look like? And how is that sort of changing with the advent of AI agents and sort of quantum computing?
Jason Jiang : Great question, Josh. I think the whole industry's technology is evolving, obviously, and as we're moving more and more into the on-chain monitoring part of it, there are, frankly speaking, there are a lack of standards as of now. But I think a lot of people, a lot of folks in this industry has tried putting different products out, which is a very welcoming sign here. For instance, we pushed out the contract verification about two years ago, and we have over hundreds of, you know, pushed out to over hundreds of protocols. And what it does is monitors whether the deployed contracts meet with the versions that have been audited, the part of the code that's been audited. So that's one simple technique. And with the AIs, it allows us to do more on-chain monitoring near real-time. Can we do it real-time? Not yet. And is the AI technology sufficient at this point to perform on-chain monitoring? No, not yet.
Josh Kriger : Are you guys thinking about building your own AI agents for different types of security review?
Jason Jiang : We've been trying. This is one of the things that we have invested a lot of effort in. even since the beginning of our company. But with the AIs, we see a great future. I keep bringing back this assumption. Is it really enough as of now? No, absolutely not. We still require A lot of expert reviews, many reviews at this point, but we see a very promising future.
Josh Kriger : Great, and zooming out a bit on the compliance side of things, I think there's a much more forward-looking enthusiasm among various governments in the Middle East and Hong Kong and in the U.S. around sort of adopting crypto-friendly policies. The cake isn't fully baked yet, But with that, I imagine there's a lot of questions and concerns about compliance. I understand that you're helping sort of shape these policies and procedures from the ground up so that the right things get built the right way. Can you talk a little bit more about your work in that area and what you think are the critical aspects of compliance to support innovation, but also sort of build trust?
Jason Jiang : Definitely. I think first of all the welcome sign is that around the globe there are many local authorities are welcoming the ideas of crypto. Second is that with that we need to empower them with the right techniques and right standards to build the trust from the regulatory side. So from CERDIC, we followed the interest of a regulatory side very closely. Two years ago, our founder and our CTO joined the Hong Kong MA Web3 Task Force. Along with YAT, right? Yes, along with YAT. And we also are part of the Singapore MAS, you know, MA of Singapore as the only Web3 advisors to them. We work with the ADGM to build their compliance report standards. And now we're working with, you know, just very recently, you know, after the Trump administration take over, the government from the U.S. side, they really opened up some opportunities there. And we are very close by with the lawmakers who are putting a lot of bills out, such as the Genius Bill. And yeah, the market bill is obviously pending. Yeah. Our market structure bill. Yeah. And and there are just today I read the news that Congress is passing another axe together. And it's really exciting. And it's, you know, we're very glad that we're part of it.
Josh Kriger : Right on. So let's fast forward into the future a little bit. Do you see a world in the not too distant future where users can actually interact with developers and protocols and have real-time security dashboards and auto attestation and composable risk modules where a lot of the concerns around sort of Yeah, with this open world, we're going to have bigger and worse hacks can actually like we can reverse things a little bit.
Jason Jiang : Reversing things. We're hoping that, but it requires a collaboration with the ecosystems as well. And the protocols. And the protocols. Right. You saw the Ethereum just announced their one trillion dollars of come in and to build a secure chain. I think nowadays everybody in this industry has realized that we have to build a secure protocol. and secure ecosystems to allow the average users to be the true participants in this industry. And if you look at the financial systems there, the banking, the modern banking system, it took 200 years to be where we're at. And with the defy of use of this blockchain technology, It's only been 10 years, I would say. So opportunities are certainly there. I encourage everybody to really join us and to help us and to make this industry better.
Josh Kriger : Right on. Well, it's clear that that trust has to be earned and that you all are sort of positioned as a leader and sort of assuring that that occurs. If folks want to learn more about CertiC, where should they go?
Jason Jiang : CertiC.com, where we host a our, you know, 16,000 projects, security scores. And we also enjoy, I mean, we also beloved the transparency is our secret recipe by hosting our 4,700 projects, audit reports on there as well. So, you know, users can do a lot of researches in our website together with all the blogs and the technical papers we published regularly. That's great. And are you on X? Myself? No. But our founder is at Ronghui Gu.
Josh Kriger : You're too busy getting things done. Well, thanks again for your time today. I appreciate it. Thank you, Josh. I really appreciate your effort.

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