The intersection between Web3 and AI is a hot topic in both circles, and it’s something that we see a lot of from the dreamers, builders and visionaries gracing the 2023 FWB Fest. This time, Josh Kriger gets to hang out with the one and only Latashá, a multi-hyphenated entrepreneurial artist and NFT enthusiast, who shares how AI has been helping her and enabling her to bring her best at what she does. Josh also talks to Adi Sideman, the founder of Revel.xyz, who shares their latest venture in the realm of digital media, creation, and collaboration. Tune in for their updates and insights!
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Listen to the podcast here
Edge Of NFT At FWB Fest: Latasha & Adi Sideman
This is Josh Kriger here at FWB Fest, having some cool conversations. We found a nice shady spot. It's not so hot over here. I'm hanging out with the one and only Latashá. What's up?
What's up?
It's good to finally have a convo on the show. You've been such a great partner for both of our events, NFT LA and then Outer Edge. It's nice to be able to catch up a little bit.
Thank you so much for having me.
Everyone should know who Latashá is but if you don't, she's the epitome of a polymath creatrix. She's a multi-hyphenated entrepreneurial artist and NFT enthusiast. She's the Head of Community Programming at the NFT protocol Zora by day. By night, she's a singer, songwriter, rapper, producer, and performance artist supporting the creator economy and the BIPOC communities.
That's my work.
How has FWB been for you?
It has been beautiful. It's my first year here.
Me too.
I'm Zen and happy. I'm chilling and learning a lot, honestly. The lectures have been crucial to me and the journey I'm in. It has been nice.
Sometimes the Web3 community can be a little frenetic. It’s all about networking at hyper-speed. There's something about being in the woods where you're able to process and integrate this information or this education a little bit easier.
The siloed life that we're in feels like a wilderness island that we're on. It's beautiful to gain information in that space. Oftentimes, we're gaining information on this phone and not so much by someone communicating it to us or having great conversations with people about things.
What are some of your reflections in terms of where you are as a creator and a leader in the Web3 space and where the space is overall?
I heard this great conversation on the lorecore factor. It opened up my heart to this idea of storytelling, how we utilize storytelling so often in Web3, and how it could be good and bad at the same time. Sometimes people get so caught up in a story of somebody's identity, and that's all they understand of the person. People evolve. We grow, change, and turn into new things. We need to learn how to give room for that a little bit in this space. I'm excited about that.
How have you grown and evolved in your Web3 journey? When did it start? How has it expanded?
I like to say that we manifested Web3 into our existence because we were always looking for a means of independence and a way to get out of the same systems that we are a part of. I remember during the pandemic, we were asking the question, "How do we get rid of the middleman?" I'm a musician mostly but I also do visual art and things of that nature. When we finally narrowed down what our needs were during the pandemic, that's when Web3 came to us. I started sometime around 2020 or 2021. I minted my first piece in 2021 on Zora.
What was it called?
It was called Ilikedat. It was this piece that was living on my hard drive that I had performed at National Sawdust in the shed through the residency program that I was doing. I didn't know if it was going to go anywhere else. I was like, "It might live on my hard drive forever, or it will live on Instagram." I released it, and it sold in three minutes. It changed my existence from there out. It became the first music video to be on blockchain and also one of the first for music NFTs in general. I was excited about that journey.
You're a transmedia multi-platform artist. How do you express your creativity in music versus art? What are the similarities and differences in terms of how you use those different platforms?
They speak to each other. Visuals help me write the music, and music helps me see the visuals. They do a back-and-forth thing with each other. It's an interesting relationship they're having, especially since I'm working on a visual album. Sometimes when I create a song, the song will tell me something about the visual. Sometimes when I'm in the visual, the visual will tell me something about a song. They connect. I don't know if I'll ever be an artist who could do one lane of things because they are holistic and work together.
Have you explored any new mediums?
I'm playing in AI a little bit, which has been fun. I also am exploring new genres of music. I'm hitting electronic and dance music heavily, which I am excited about. I've always been in the realms but this time, I'm deep in it. I'm producing my album.
Is that something you had seen yourself doing? Did that manifest in a moment?
Being in the Web3 space helped me answer some questions that I was grappling with for a long time as a woman artist in hip-hop. I love hip-hop. It's my first rooted space for music, but I've been dealing for a long time with the challenges of women in hip-hop and the lack of expansiveness. Being in the Web3 space kept reminding me of my multidimensional being and how I can do so much more. I found this exploration but it has always been there. I didn't allow myself to step into it all the time.
You mentioned AI. We have a new podcast, Edge of AI, that came out. A lot of folks are sharing things happening in the AI space with us. It's fun to learn by asking questions. One particular project I heard about was an AI app that lets your AI date someone else's AI to see if you're compatible. I was thinking. With what you're sharing, what if your music AI dated your art AI and started producing things while you were sleeping? What would that look like?
That would be so great for me so I could get some more sleep, honestly.
There might be that opportunity in all seriousness. I wonder what that could do in terms of sparking some new ideas for you because both versions of you manifested working while you get to sleep.
That's a creation baby right there. If my music and my visuals started dating while I sleep, I'll be so very happy.
What are you seeing in this space outside of your work that gets you excited? What are some of the projects that you're fanning out on in use cases that you're particularly excited about?
I saw this piece by @ShumonBasar. They did an AI film. I thought that was incredible because my partner, Jah, is also doing an AI film. The idea of film moving into the AI space is exciting for me. I know that it's challenging for some people.
We got David Bianchi doing some of the RZR in that genre.
I'm excited to see how people are utilizing that tool to revolutionize the market and the industry because the film industry like the music industry has a lot of issues and challenges that it's facing. If we took control through AI, Web3, and all the tools that we're utilizing, we will see a change in the market.
When you look at where we are in terms of the music-Web3 intersection now versus where you had anticipated we may be, I don't know if you have expectations, or if you try to always be in the moment. Are you excited, disappointed, or neutral about the current moment in terms of Web3 and music? Where do you hope it goes next?
I always understand that these movements move in waves. We're going to find our ebbs and flows in it. I navigate like that. If there’s anything that I might be disappointed with, it is just mindsets and fear. That's a part of humanity, and that's what we do as humans. That's the only case but I'm excited because I still got this amazing tool that I could use for my music. It transcends any other tool that I've utilized for my music because it allows me to be all that I want to be.
How are you thinking about utilizing AI in terms of your own creative process?
I use AI in a lot of different ways. I use it to write scripts for my albums. I also have been using it for music and finding chords. I'm going to promote this tool. I don't know if I want to sponsor them. Spark is this cool tool that my executive producer put me on too. You could tell it what chords you want. You can say, "I want Stevie Wonder chords." It will make you some variety of that. It has been fun to play with those kinds of things. I'm interested in exploring whatever could bring out the best work.
Is there anything specific on your roadmap in the next few months that you can speak to at this point?
@Zoratopia has started back up. We're doing our URL experiences where we're educating folks on Web3 and getting them the 101. This is for a newbie who has never understood Web3. I'm working on my album, which I'm excited about.
Does it have a niche?
It's called Start Here. It's going to come out in March 2024. It comes with a video game component, which I'm excited about.
Music and video games go together so well. A lot of the best games have great music and great stories. That's a new medium for you.
I've never built a video game. We're on that journey.
What type of game is it?
It's going to be an 8-bit type of vibe. It's very Super Mario meets Space Invaders old-school.
Are you going to be a character in the game?
I might be.
Are there any cameos from friends?
Maybe. I'm hyped for it. It's something I've never done before. We will see.
It's dope. I'm going to keep fanning out on you and what you're up to. What's the easiest way for folks to follow your journey?
You could find me @CallMeLatashá on all of the socials and my email as well. Those are the best ways to catch me.
Let's catch up again when your album is coming out and the game is coming out and talk about it on the show.
See you soon.
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Josh Kriger here at FWB Fest 2023 enjoying some beautiful people, beautiful weather, and lots of trees with Adi Sideman, the founder of Revel.xyz. He has been a partner with us at Outer Edge. We got a chance to catch up a little bit and wanted to share the conversation with our audiences. How are you doing, Adi?
Thanks for having me, Josh.
It's my pleasure. You have been building a lot of cool stuff at the intersection of Web3 and AI. We should talk about it. To give folks a little bit of your bio, you're a pioneer in participatory media, creating apps and companies in the UGC and blockchain space. You run Revel.xyz, which is a social collections platform. Prior to that, you ran Open Props, a loyalty token company, and YouNow, a livestreaming service with over 120 million monthly sessions. That's a lot of sessions.
As a developer, you've created more than 30 online games, including the Matrix Game for the famed Warner Bros movie. In 2005, you also co-created kSolo, an online karaoke service, which was acquired by MySpace. In 2006, you co-founded the audio network TargetSpot, a JV with CBS that was acquired by Radionomy. Those are a lot of companies. You like to build companies.
We're still young. It's a passion and a way of life.
Let's give folks a little bit of an overview of Revel and your latest venture.
Revel is a personal media marketplace. Think about a cross between Instagram and Robinhood wrapped in social game economics where anyone can create their own collectibles and digital trading cards. Anyone can collect them, stake them, and get yield in people through the media that they emit. How does that work? Once I own you, collect you, and stake you, if you mint more and when you mint more, I get a little addition of that collection.
It manages economies around people and creators. We work at that intersection of providing value not just to the creators but to the followers who are now partners and breathing life into that design space. What does it mean to be partners and co-owners in the digital media space? We have tens of thousands of users. We have mints every 10 to 15 minutes. We have a transaction every 2 to 3 minutes. That's Revel.xyz.
It's a downloadable app. It's on iOS because I have it on my phone also. Is it on Android too?
Revel.xyz is on Android and iOS. It's consumer-first.
What's the ratio of fans to creators? How has that evolved since you started?
We don't look at Revel.xyz as a creator platform. We look at it as a people's platform with an ambition to become a mass consumer product and that ability for everyone to not just experience the media, own the media, and collect the media but also create it. We all have camera rolls. We're all good at generative AI and making new stuff. The reality is we all emit media, and it has value for someone, whether it's our friends and family or whether it's a wider audience. Part of what we're doing is effectively enabling people to crowdsource their camera roll. There's even a price discovery there where a lot of people are creating generative AI on our platform. That's built-in. Some of it is worth a couple of pennies and some of it a couple of dollars. You discover what it's worth.
What's been the most money something sold for on the platform so far?
Probably a few hundred bucks.
This is the every-human social creator platform where folks can do that. Do you have a sense of your demographics at this point in terms of where folks are globally, age range, or anything? Is that something that you don't pry into?
We do. We're very interested in it so that we can best cater to our users. Our users are in the United States and Europe. India is an interesting market. In general, in developing countries, folks are looking for opportunities to monetize. For users, the biggest group is 25 to 36. A third is below, and a third is above.
That makes sense. What's your thesis from having started Revel to now in the sense of what's going to ultimately create more mass adoption? I'm sure you've tried some things that have worked. You've tried some things that haven't worked. You're exploring and advancing your technology in real time. What have we learned about what's working the best?
In the marketplace in general, we can see what's not working, and that is taking existing models like Twitter and adding a blockchain element to it. It's not apparent and clear to regular users what the value proposition is. It's very theoretical right now. You can move your assets to different networks and move your social graph but why would I own a piece of media?
It's our responsibility as an industry to bring this value proposition in a tactile way to end users. As soon as they realize that new value proposition of why is it good to own, then we will start seeing a shift into the mainstream. It's not just the interfaces. It's making that experience tactile. That's what we are experimenting with and exploring. For example, leaderboards of who are the biggest followers, owners, and co-owners of your media. Those are important both for me and the creator.
Why is true ownership essential? Why couldn't this be done without blockchain and the NFT layer?
At the end of the day, the world is moving toward more control of the consumers, and consumers are going to learn to appreciate that more and more over the years. You want to be interoperable and provide that basic table stakes. The reality is what people want and what people want to be a part of. There's a whole history of how we as human beings biologically want to be part of groups. That has been around since the caveman owned and shared assets, sharing the fire, the tools, and the food. In the digital world, we can have that framework of co-ownership through digital media.
That is not just a financial thing. That is very much a psychological and a biological thing. What is my happiness? Where does it come from? What is self-fulfillment? Biologically, it's getting recognition from the group for my contribution, recognition for being able to provide the group some value. All of that is inherent in ownership. In digital media, we can bring that to bear. We're very much focused on that. What can people do in the group? It's not just status. They can stake, burn, fuse, help market the group stuff, and co-create. This is a very exciting space.
What have you found have been the most popular forms of digital media? Folks are creating generative AI art. They're taking photographs. What are the themes that have bubbled up in terms of the types of digital media that people are most excited about?
We see two main types, and I would put them in broad categories of lifestyle and generative AI. The lifestyle tends to be creators and influencers that are already in the market doing their thing. They're now becoming hip to a new business model and a new opportunity of turning their media into collectibles, and partnering with their audience in this new way. That's what you would expect from lifestyle creators.
Generative AI is a whole new world. We have a partnership with Stability AI. Inside Revel.xyz, you can create generative AI content. That is very popular. About 50% of the content on Revel is generative AI. What we hear from the audience is this is one of the few if not the only marketplace for generative AI art. I don't need to put a price on it because that's how Revel works. People make offers, trade, and even barter but I can find the price discovery of my content. I create a lot of stuff during the day, and the audience crowdsources the best stuff. If I want to, I mint it on-chain and move it to other distribution platforms.
I remember the press release about that a few months ago. It sounded exciting. Stability is a major player in the AI space. People can use the tool for free. I tried it. I don't know to what extent it's changed since I tried it. You submit your art, and then it processes it. You get an email later that it has been created. Is that the basic model?
That's Revel.xyz/animai. That's a little bit of a marketing loss leader to bring people into the app. We have hundreds of those created every day. In addition, once you're in the app and you click on the Create button, you can mint from your camera roll, type in any prompt to create your art right there and then inside the app, or upload a few photos and create your persona, which is a manipulation of you. There are a few products.
Is there a fee for that?
There's no fee. To be correct, we give you a few revs when you come in, and that's enough to do a few of these.
You can keep going if you want to. What's the fee structure for that?
We give folks who are coming into the app a couple of bucks to start with. You can do unlimited prompt creation but then if you want to upload your photo and create generative AI from your face, that's a little bit over $1 a pop. It gives you 80 versions of yourself plus two animations for that.
That's pretty reasonable and probably could be a new addiction for some folks, especially if they take a lot of selfies already. That's exciting. You've been messing around with AI yourself in prompts. Do you have any tips or tricks as you go about using AI personally and professionally?
There are so many great services out there to do it. In Revel, it's free. My advice is to experiment with different prompts once you come to create on Revel and different filters. We provide over a hundred filters built-in in terms of styles and whatnot. The most exciting thing about generative AI and the industry and where it's going is that it's bringing social collaboration to our fingertips. It's not just that I can create my own art, manipulate my own images, or make my own collectibles.
Very soon, I'll be able to tag you, Josh, and I would be like, "Me and Josh are hanging out in Burning Man." Within a second, without us having to get on a plane, we are having that experience effectively in the metaverse. You will probably need to approve it and say, "On my feed, I see that Adi wants to hang out with me in Burning Man. I like Adi. It also says here that he wants to be hugging me. That's a little too much. I'm married. Maybe I'll change the prompt to Me and Adi are riding bicycles in Burning Man and approve it." We're then 50/50 on that piece of media collaboration as a new social experience.
Consent is important. My girlfriend has reminded me many times I can't post photos of her on Instagram and Facebook without her permission.
You add her as a second signer to your wallet.
It's essential. She's going to be excited. I've been vetoed. I've had to remove some photos. She looks beautiful but she is like, "Not today." That's exciting. Are there any particular prompts that you've messed around with maybe someone in your family or a colleague has done, and you're like, "That's cool." Can you give us any specific examples of prompts that you think have produced some fun results?
The most important thing once you write down a prompt is to iterate on it and meditate on it. What else would you like to see that is out of the ordinary? Is it cinematic? Is it not cinematic? What kind of style is it? What does it remind you of? Continue going down that rabbit hole with that prompt as opposed to trying one prompt, giving up, trying another prompt, and staying superficial like a pig flying on the moon. It's meditating. Smoke a joint. Have fun with it. Stay for twenty minutes on that prompt, and the results will surprise you.
I'm going to revisit the app and use some of the additional functions that I haven't tried yet based on this. I encourage others to download Revel and give it a shot. This is a lot of fun. Thanks for hanging out with us. Keep us posted on everything you're up to.
Thank you, Josh.
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